a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by mk
mk  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Bits and Barbarism

    So why are we tearing up the highlands of Papua New Guinea to add to our dead stock of gold and, even more bizarrely, running powerful computers 24/7 to add to a dead stock of digits?

Krugman is focusing too much upon the aspect of bitcoin that libertarians love, which runs counter to his own politics. He is taking it personally. I agree that the gold-standard is ridiculous. However, it is a very silly thing to compare bitcoin to gold. Bitcoin is a protocol. It is a universal ledger that prevents double-spending, counterfeiting, and enables transactions at very low cost, and it has other intrinsic functionalities. Bitcoins are the units of this ledger, the addresses of this protocol. Far from being inert, within adoption of the bitcoin protocol, they offer more liquidity than USD, which must navigate a complex and expensive network of middlemen whenever a transaction occurs.

Krugman needs to do some more homework. It's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical of bitcoin. However, this is a strawman argument, not an informed critique of bticoin for what it is.

You would think he might have learned to be more cautious in this arena, check out his last two predictions of this 1998 piece:

    * The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in "Metcalfe's law"--which states that the number of potential connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of participants--becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine's.

    * As the rate of technological change in computing slows, the number of jobs for IT specialists will decelerate, then actually turn down; ten years from now, the phrase information economy will sound silly.





kleinbl00  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I disagree. I think he's focusing on the economic fallacies of BTC and comparing them with the economic fallacies of a gold standard, while being dismissive of the libertarian drive behind BTC.

You can dismantle the gold standard with some ECON101 thinking - at least, that is, if you're a Keynes/Smith free market economist. That's what the "bottles full of money" jab was about. Step outside of that framework, though, and the principle behind a gold standard or BTC is a revocation of central bank authority - "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws" as Mayer Rothschild said.

I'd hypothesize that he's writing to his audience - Krugman readers in the NYT are likely to be middle-of-the-road center-left Democrats with mutual funds and maybe an eTrade account for dallying. To them, BTC is a commodity. After all, you can't do anything with it until you exchange it for dollars, and the central banks have shown reluctance to do that, making BTC much more like light sweet crude than FOREX. BTC arbitrage has a lot more in common with phone phreaking than it does with the bond market. To that end, Krugman's arguments are en pointe.

Clearly, the true believers of BTC see it as an end-run around all other currency in which we stop trading in dollars or euros and do our transactions in a torrent economy. Really, BTC is a pirate currency whose speculative advantages are great enough that it's interested the daytraders. From a Krugman point of view, the "currency" aspects of BTC are much less relevant than the Adam Smith stupidity of the situation.

mk  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Clearly, the true believers of BTC see it as an end-run around all other currency in which we stop trading in dollars or euros and do our transactions in a torrent economy.

The more I've looked at it, the more I believe it will occupy a middle ground for some time to come. As long as the exchanges are more competitive than PayPal, bitcoin has a lot to offer as simply a ledger for online transactions. Coinbase + the bitcoin network looks a lot more attractive than PayPal alone. I see bitcoin eating PayPal within a few years (which might include PayPal becoming a bitcoin wallet). It will also eat Square, then Visa and Mastercard. Only after all of that, do I think bitcoin can start to supplant fiat currencies; and if that happens, it will be mostly because people will no longer recognize the difference between the two.

The speculative bitcoin market is about as rationale as any other bubble market, and I think that Krugman is right to criticize it. However, I would think a Keynesian could recognize that it might not be a matter of bitcoins as units, but the nature of the network. Perhaps he simple sees the innate limited resource aspect of bitcoin and thus throws out the baby and the bathwater. As you said he is attacking the principle. However, bitcoins may very well never need to be currency for the network to change the global economy. The principle behind bitcoin might not matter. IMO Krugman is making the faulty assumption that bitcoin will fail unless bitcoins are a real currency. His arguments might be on point to that extent, but bitcoin is much more than that.

A few days ago I posted an interview a few days ago where Kevin Rose interviewed Brian Armstrong of Coinbase. What I thought was most telling, was how Armstrong only referred to price in terms of raising awareness of bitcoin. IMO from where he is sitting, he wants to see people use it to move 'real' money. Bitcoin might be the http of money, but not money. Krugman should see that. David Woo of BoA sees it.

EDIT: Timothy B. Lee makes the same counterargument in the WaPo. It's no less fluffy as mine. I could be a staff writer.

kleinbl00  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I see bitcoin eating PayPal within a few years (which might include PayPal becoming a bitcoin wallet). It will also eat Square, then Visa and Mastercard.

Ahh, but grasshopper - do you see what you just did?

Paypal is a company.

Square is a company.

Visa is a company.

Mastercard is a company.

BTC is a PROTOCOL.

Each and every one of them could start honoring BTC tomorrow. They could move to BTC internally. They're not going to, though, because it's unstable and non-portable. They could trade in gold, too - hell, they could trade in Alcoa stock. They don't. They trade in currencies that are insured and regulated by central banking authorities.

That's the only barrier to admission for a large company like Paypal - fiduciary portability. That portability is the home court advantage of conventional currency. BTC may yet get there, but the methodology by which it shall do so is "brute force." None of the companies you mention would face a single penalty to accepting BTC other than its inherent volatility. If that volatility goes away, BTC is as good as cash. However, "that volatility going away" is more likely to be an outcome than a goal.

    However, I would think a Keynesian could recognize that it might not be a matter of bitcoins as units, but the nature of the network.

The nature of the network is libertarian and outside of conventional economic theory. Granted, "conventional economic theory" has been decidedly wrong of late, which is a mark in BTC's favor. But then, it's no different than any other black market currency: subject to pressures outside of regulation, vulnerable to pressures within regulation.

    As you said he is attacking the principle.

That's not what I meant to say. What I meant to say is that he's attacking the framework of BTC within conventional banking standards while the aegis of BTC is existence outside conventional banking standards. It's akin to a record exec attacking the MP3 algorithm without acknowledging the MP3 economy. Basically, he's an A&R man advising recording industry execs not to invest with the Freunhaufer Institute. He doesn't even get into the wonders of Napster.

    IMO Krugman is making the faulty assumption that bitcoin will fail unless bitcoins are a real currency.

My read was that he was attacking the notion that just because it walks like a currency, quacks like a currency and shits like a currency it must be a currency. Considering how much time and effort MtGox and others put into the "WE ARE NOT A BANK" trope, I'd say he has a valid argument.

    A few days ago I posted an interview a few days ago where Kevin Rose interviewed Brian Armstrong of Coinbase.

Ain't nobody got time for that, yo. 40 minutes of Kevin Rose is 39:50 too long.

    David Woo of BoA sees it.

Right. BoA sure called the housing bubble correctly.

    EDIT: Timothy B. Lee makes the same counterargument in the WaPo. It's no less fluffy as mine. I could be a staff writer.

Again, I disagree. The WaPo argument is that BTC mining should not be seen as the same as gold mining because BTC mining is just a way to incentivize people into providing a backbone for BTC transactions. Put into simple terms:

BTC transaction backbone = brick'n'mortar banking network

BTC mine = Brick'n'mortar bank branch

BTC miner = Brick'n'mortar bank teller

The WaPo argues that Bitcoin mining is parasitic, rather than opportunistic. It's a valid argument, and it underlines one of Krugman's (misunderstandings? Omissions? Hard to say) in the article. Your argument, on the other hand, is that an exchange is an exchange is an exchange. It's not. The transaction point between BTC and most currencies is "commodity" not "currency" which

A) makes sense

B) gives governments an incentive (taxation)

C) delegitimizes the fundamental principle of BTC (it's a currency, not a thing)

It's that discontinuity, right there, that keeps BTC volatile. There's no real way to know how portable it will be moving forward, and every government in the world has ample incentive to penalize it.

This is not Krugman's argument (in this column, at least). His argument is that it's like the Gold Standard, and to Keynesian thinking, money standards are dumb. One is reminded of the phone sanitizers in Hitchhiker's Guide, and their choice of "leaves" as currency, which led to massive deforestation in order to drive up currency prices.

I dunno. If I had money to invest, I'd put it in Square, not BTC. My wife ran $10k off a Centurion card two years ago and in one fell swoop saved $300 off what Visa or Paypal would have charged her. They're making that shit easy yo, and it's currency-agnostic. The legislation necessary to make that go happened uneventfully in 2003 or so. It's clear sailing for Square.

Bitcoin? BTC is one justice department finding away from oblivion - or worse, a burn notice. Thus I watch, but I do not invest.

mk  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Paypal is a company. Square is a company. Visa is a company. Mastercard is a company. BTC is a PROTOCOL. Each and every one of them could start honoring BTC tomorrow. They could move to BTC internally. They're not going to, though, because it's unstable and non-portable. They could trade in gold, too - hell, they could trade in Alcoa stock. They don't. They trade in currencies that are insured and regulated by central banking authorities.

Yes, it's the protocol that I am talking about, and as I mentioned, I do see adoption as a likely scenario. But, I am not talking about people holding onto BTC, or merchants either. The possibility that I see, is USD transactions using the bitcoin network for the ledger it is. Merchants using Coinbase can instantly convert BTC they receive to USD. Perhaps I could also instantly convert USD to BTC when I spend it? That's what Ripple is, and bitcoin comes without the pyramid scheme of Ripple Labs holding half of the XRP.

The traditional transactional protocols for USD are convoluted and expensive. Bitcoin offers another means to exchange USD. For that to happen, it doesn't matter much if bitcoins are worth $3 or $3000 so long as the value is stable enough that an exchange can float the minutes needed to verify a transaction.

    The WaPo argument is that BTC mining should not be seen as the same as gold mining because BTC mining is just a way to incentivize people into providing a backbone for BTC transactions.

I think Lee makes the point that mining doesn't just generate coins alone, but powers the tranasction protocol, which is the more interesting aspect of bitcoin that Krugman doesn't discuss. This, I believe was the takeaway from Lee's piece:

    But the smart case for Bitcoin isn't as a replacement for the dollar. Rather, Bitcoin is best seen as an alternative, or complement, to conventional payment networks like Visa, PayPal and Western Union.

    Leading Bitcoin payment processors such as BitPay and Coinbase already give merchants the ability to price their goods in conventional currency. The dollar or euro price is automatically converted to the corresponding number of bitcoins (or fractions of a bitcoin) at the time of purchase. That makes Bitcoin's price fluctuations almost irrelevant for the thousands of merchants who now accept payment in Bitcoin.

This is why Andreessen Horowitz is investing in both Coinbase and Ripple. They know that the next gen transaction protocol is coming, and they are hedging their bets.

Only far down the line, if the bitcoin protocol wins universal adoption, do I see bitcoins themselves as possibly assuming some mantle of currency. But that's not why I find them interesting. There are a vast number of bitcoin fanatics that see it as some sort of revolution in currency. I don't. I see it as a ledger that can enable us to buy things without losing 3% (or worse) to middlemen.

kleinbl00  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The possibility that I see, is USD transactions using the bitcoin network for the ledger it is. Merchants using Coinbase can instantly convert BTC they receive to USD.

I'm probably being obtuse about this. Can you tell me what the advantages are for transacting in BTC? If there's dollars on either side, the only advantage to dealing in BTC is different (as opposed to lesser) transaction fees… and Square and others are whittling away at that already. Yes, the "traditional transactional protocols" are convoluted and expensive, but the Check 21 act eliminated their necessity in 2004. That's why Square can exist.

    This, I believe was the takeaway from Lee's piece:

It's an allegation, though, not an argument. I can go to Kinko's right now and buy a Square reader for $9. They'll give me a $9 credit. Now I can take Visa, MC, Amex, you name it. It's in dollars, it talks to Quickbooks, and it's cheap. More than that, if there's a dispute, there's someone to dispute it with: that's one of the real problems with peer-to-peer as far as consumers are concerned; something goes wrong with a BTC scam and it's between you and… well, there it is.

    I see it as a ledger that can enable us to buy things without losing 3% (or worse) to middlemen.

Large organizations will still do wire transfer because of the security. Small operators will gripe over 3%, but they'll pay it. Because really, for the majority of transactions between individuals, the banking network absorbs the fees already. I don't pay a fee when I paypal a "gift." I don't pay a fee when I send a check. And I don't need a working knowledge of cryptocurrency.

But this has become a roaming discussion - the argument for BTC is a lack of central authority. The argument against BTC is a lack of central authority. The argument for gold is a lack of central authority. The argument against gold is a lack of central authority. That, in my opinion, is the point Krugman is making… he's just omitting the arguments "for."

mk  ·  3990 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I'm probably being obtuse about this. Can you tell me what the advantages are for transacting in BTC? If there's dollars on either side, the only advantage to dealing in BTC is different (as opposed to lesser) transaction fees… and Square and others are whittling away at that already. Yes, the "traditional transactional protocols" are convoluted and expensive, but the Check 21 act eliminated their necessity in 2004. That's why Square can exist.

One advantage is that rather than numerous closed networks, bitcoin offers a open distributed ledger. Like HTTP and SMTP, a standard protocol reduces costs of fragmentation, and lowers the barrier to entry. Fees of the bitcoin network itself can be near zero, whereas Coinbase currently charges 1% for buying and selling (currently for merchants, the first $1M is free). PayPal charges 2.9% + $0.30 per transaction. As the protocol is open and won't change quickly, others can easily get into the wallet game, and likely keep a downward pressure on these fees, perhaps like webmail; Hotmail couldn't get away with $20/yr for 20MB for long, it was just too easy to undercut. Another thing that could exert downward pressure, is that anyone can transfer BTC without a processor. For example, if you have a paywall, you can accept numerous BTC payments for free, and cash out to USD at the end of the day (or hour), running around any 'per-transaction fees', which most credit card processors include. On top of the advantages that come from letting anyone tinker with an open protocol, bitcoin has other built in functionalities such as m of n transactions whereby a transfer won't occur unless m of n parties approves the transaction. Escrow, arbitration, and pledge functionalities exist as part of the protocol. As one example, you could crowd fund a project, where the money only transfers if a certain total value is pledged. You can use the ledger for a notary stamp. This is part of the protocol.

It gets even deeper, and my knowledge of the protocol is limited. However, the more I look, the more I find shit that is pretty compelling. The short version to the argument is that with bitcoin, you can have an internet rather than a bunch of intranets patched together. Techies can then go to work on that, and take it to the next level and the next. As an example, look at namecoin, using the bitcoin protocol, they are creating an ICANN-free DNS registry among other things; there's talk that this could be used for an verifiable voting ledger.

At this point, I'm basically saying the bitcoin P2P network offers potentially transformative innovation and cohesion in the transactional space. There's a story under all this talk about bitcoins, and I think Krugman is remiss to gloss over it. Maybe he has considered all of these aspects of bitcoin, but as the dude said:

    By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine's.

I think it's likely he hasn't.

BTW, I think Square is going public this year.

kleinbl00  ·  3990 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    At this point, I'm basically saying the bitcoin P2P network offers potentially transformative innovation and cohesion in the transactional space.

I get that. The difference between you and me is I remain skeptical. Thanks for your reasons.

Mine include:

1) The prices charged by existing networks are arbitrary, not fixed-cost. A viable cryptocurrency (let's just call it CC) exchange would definitely exert downward pricing pressure on Visa or Paypal. But then, it probably has. Target griped a few years ago that their biggest expense was credit card transaction fees; I've never seen Walmart say the same thing. Dollars to donuts Walmart stiff-armed Visa and MC.

2) Those with the most incentive to use a CC network are those most impacted by a 3% fee. Those most impacted by a 3% fee are the ones with the most leverage over a closed network. The small business owner benefits from going to CC because he has no leverage. The large business owner benefits from whinging to his banking network.

3) The allure of CC is in anonymity and a lack of central control; the allure of a conventional network is FDIC insurance and heavy regulation. In order to trust a traditional network, you need to know that the government insures it. In order to trust a CC network you need to have a more-than-passing knowledge of encryption and P2P. Bittorrent remains wizardry to the majority of the populace.

4) Your arguments basically boil down to "extensible marketplace" vs. "walled garden." "Extensible marketplace" is not necessarily an advantage; the App Store still does 4 times the business of Google Play. Combine that with the points above and no matter how awesome CC may be, no matter how many advantages it provides, it still could end up Betamax. It still could end up OS/2. Especially since the things a CC infrastructure offers over a traditional infrastructure are things the traditional infrastructure chooses not to provide, not things they cannot provide.

mk  ·  3990 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Fair enough.

Totally saving this post for reexamination a couple of years from now. :)

kleinbl00  ·  3990 days ago  ·  link  ·  

By all means. Let's see just how wrong I was!

mk  ·  3986 days ago  ·  link  ·  

FYI, Krugman expanded on his opinion some more.

Didn't feel like making it a post.

Interesting question: Can being a good medium of exchange equate to a reliable store of value?

cgod  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think that you are letting an aspect of bit coins pass you by. Because of the rigid quantity of bitcoins, the more success it finds the less it will circulate. It's a deflationary currency, the more widely accepted it becomes the less of it will circulate. People will choose to hold bitcoins speculatively (you could argue this is pretty much the case already) rather than use them for casual transaction.

I don't recall who's theory this is, but it's basic monetary theory. When there are two forms of currency people will horde the one that is more sound. A deflationary currency is always going to hold it's value better than an inflationary currency so people would always choose to hold their cash holdings in bit coins and spend USD or whatever else they use.

I think this is going to be a problem for bit coins.

wasoxygen  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You may be referring to Gresham's Law. When there are two kinds of currency which are required by law to be honored at the same value people will prefer to spend the one that is perceived as inferior. Just like I spend a wrinkled old dollar bill first, people would spend a coin that had been clipped or sweated before a mint coin. When coins containing precious metals were replaced with coins made of base metal, but by law they had the same value, people hoarded the old coins.

This does not occur if the relative price of the two currencies is allowed to float. Old silver coins are now worth more than their face value, and people do sell them. People may expect their bitcoin holdings to rise in value relative to other currencies because of the capped future supply, giving them reason to hold them. But if most people feel that way, it will drive the price of bitcoin up, giving people a reason to spend bitcoin. This is no bigger a problem for bitcoin than it is for any other commodity: classic cars, Picasso paintings, gold. The advantage of bitcoin over old Corvettes is that it is (practically) infinitely divisible.

wasoxygen  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You would think he might have learned to be more cautious
You would think. Especially when writing an article titled "Why most economists' predictions are wrong."

But he doesn't get paid to write true statements, he gets paid to bring readers.

And the reader should not suppose that Krugman is joking around when he reports that "Keynes whimsically suggested" burying bottles of cash. Here's Keynes:

    If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and, with the help of the repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth also, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is.

Source: near the end of Chapter 10 of the General Theory.

One wonders then why it would not be worthwhile to grab the newly-recovered bottles from the miners and bury them again.

Krugman is a Keynesian. In the same chapter, Keynes doubles down on the wealth-creation-by-wasting-time-and-effort theory: "Pyramid-building, earthquakes, even wars may serve to increase wealth, if the education of our statesmen on the principles of the classical economics stands in the way of anything better."

Krguman needs to get access to Wikipedia. He says, "Even if you take a global perspective, episodes of really high inflation have become rare." Really? I just mentioned my souvenir one-million-lira banknote, and also plugged the classic takedown of Keynes: What is seen and what is not seen. Wikipedia has a shorter version of the Parable of the Broken Window.

If you're not bored silly yet -- perhaps even better if you are -- you should know that Keynes starred in some pretty good rap videos.

http://econstories.tv/2010/06/22/fear-the-boom-and-bust/

http://econstories.tv/2011/04/28/fight-of-the-century-music-.../

user-inactivated  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What if James Goodfellow, instead of foregoing new shoes, borrowed a different six francs to repair the window and then never paid it back? War has certainly fueled our economy in the past...

Also, with the exception of Zimbabwe, the newest instance of inflation mentioned in that entire Wikipedia page was 16 years old. Offhand the only other places I can think of which are hyperinflating right now are in South America, and Venezuela for one is entirely doing this to itself. Are there others I'm missing? I don't want to be too quick to dismiss what Krugman is saying but it does seem a bit unlikely.

EDIT: I should note that while I read Bastiat's original words, I also took a look at the Wikipedia page and went on a fascinating tangent about the unlooked-for negative effects of the Cash for Clunkers program.

wasoxygen  ·  3983 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    What if James Goodfellow, instead of foregoing new shoes, borrowed a different six francs to repair the window and then never paid it back?
The resources would still be consumed. Six creditors would each lose a franc of value, the same total loss. And Mr. Goodfellow would be less popular.

    War has certainly fueled our economy in the past...
I cannot answer better than kleinbl00 and Ike have.

    Also, with the exception of Zimbabwe, the newest instance of inflation mentioned in that entire Wikipedia page was 16 years old.
There were a few more recent examples:

· Turkey's revaluation of the Lira on 1 January 2005.

· Belarus experienced steady inflation from 1994 to 2002.

· North Korea most likely experienced hyperinflation from December 2009 to mid-January 2011.

· Romania experienced hyperinflation in the 1990s. The highest denomination in 1990 was 100 lei and in 1998 was 100,000 lei. By 2000 it was 500,000 lei. In early 2005 it was 1,000,000 lei.

With so many of the examples occurring in the last 30 years, one could argue that "episodes of really high inflation have become common" rather than "rare" if that suited one's rhetorical needs.

In the context of Bitcoin serving as a possible relief, I don't see why it matters if hyperinflation is rare. It could still help North Koreans and Zimbabweans.

kleinbl00  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.

-Dwight D. Eisenhower, April 16, 1953

Something often missed in discussions of hyperinflation is that it's a brutally effective way to eliminate foreign debt. In amongst that list of hyperinflators are Brazil and Russia, half of the BRIC countries. Hyperinflation was, arguably, a reason why Germany was able to rebuild a war machine while simultaneously avoiding reparations for WWI. Economy mismatch is a troubling problem for economists. They rarely model it correctly. The plot of Goldfinger (irradiate all the gold in Fort Knox, thereby destabilizing central banks and causing world mayhem and rocketing gold prices) was basically the plot of the Nixon Shock which ended Bretton-Woods. There was decidedly not panic in the streets.

user-inactivated  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Something often missed in discussions of hyperinflation is that it's a brutally effective way to eliminate foreign debt.

Can you expand on this? It seems to me that the creation of money is an excellent way to eliminate debt, yes, but that hyperinflation and less debt are two results of one cause (money creation ex nihilo), rather than one cause and one result.

EDIT: so ideally Venezuela walks that fine line where it creates money to throw at its debt to the United States, assuming that exists, while still maintaining a manageable inflation rate. Unfortunately instead Venezuela is fucked for tangentially-related reasons.

EDIT2: as far as the Nixon Shock, I thought the Frum column mentioned in the Wikipedia article had some good bits.

kleinbl00  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Can you expand on this?

John Mauldin spends several chapters on Hyperinflation in Endgame. The statistically-significant phrase you're looking for is "foreign denominated debt."

    "In 1993 Brazilian inflation was roughly 2,000%. Only four years later, in 1997 it was 7%. Almost as if by magic, the debt disappeared. Imagine if the US increased its money supply which is currently $900 billion by a factor of 10,000 times as Brazil's did between 1991 and 1996. We would have 9 quadrillion USD on the Fed's balance sheet. That is a lot of zeros. It would also mean that our current debt of thirteen trillion would be chump change. A critic of this strategy for getting rid of our debt could point out that no one would lend to us again if we did that. Hardly. Investors, sadly, have very short memories. Markets always forgive default and inflation. Just look at Brazil, Bolivia, and Russia today. Foreigners are delighted to invest in these countries."

http://news.goldseek.com/MillenniumWaveAdvisors/1318786155.p... (a leak from Mauldin Economics, which requires registration)

As far as your edits, it's rare that I like reading David Frum, but you're right: he makes a case.

user-inactivated  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Okay, I'm still having trouble with the concept specifically quoted above, and yes I did read the rest of it.

Hypothetical: Brazil owes the US 10 dollars -- dollars, not Brazilian reals. In 1993 one dollar is worth say five reals. So 50 reals owed. The Brazilian government decides to print some extra reals to pay the US back. However, it seems to me that if they print a few more reals, they've devalued the real in relation to the dollar by inflating their own currency -- and so instead of owing us 50 reals like they did before, they owe us more, because 50 reals isn't worth ten bucks anymore. So they haven't changed the status quo.

I must be missing something obvious. Is it that Brazil's debt to the US is measured in reals not dollars no matter what? So as their currency hyperinflates the US can't demand more reals as payback? If that's the case why the hell do we loan money to countries that may ever become economically unstable?

I mean, I obviously know that inflation aides a debtor in general, but I figured that rule stops applying when only one currency in the equation is inflating.

(You have no obligation to teach me economics.)

kleinbl00  ·  3991 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Brazil owes the US 10 dollars -- dollars, not Brazilian reals. In 1993 one dollar is worth say five reals. So 50 reals owed.

And for fun, let's say Brazil owes Brazilians 250 Brazilian reals. In 1993 one dollar is worth say five reals. So 50 dollars owed.

    The Brazilian government decides to print some extra reals to pay the US back.

Sounds great. Let's say in 1995 one dollar is worth say 50 reals. So Brazil owes The US 10 dollars (or 500 reals) and Brazilians 250 reals (or $5.) Brazil's debt load has dropped from $60 to $15 through a mere factor-of-10 inflation!

    I must be missing something obvious.

You missed the sleight of hand. 'cuz I'm printing reals for the explicit purpose of fucking my country. I can pay the fuck out of my domestic debt. That was the point. It's now nothing. All that cash you were hoarding? Yeah, eat shit. It's worth ten cents on the dollar. 'cuz my next move is to introduce La Nueva Real by lopping off a zero. I'm gonna exchange Reals for NRs at 1:10. And I'm going to peg the NR at 1:1 for dollars.

So even if I hadn't paid off my pensioners, I'd only owe them 25 NR. But I have. And even if I hadn't paid off the US, I'd only owe them $15.

Make no mistake: it's pure monetary destruction. It usually involves riots, unrest, panic in the streets, an upended social order, hoarding, all that superfun Weimar Republic shit. But then you get through to the other side and you're an economy again.

Think of it as a hard reset for an economy - a three-finger-salute for a kernel panic. Recovery is likely to be a bitch, and you will have lost data… but once you reboot, the system will run again.

Make sense?

user-inactivated  ·  3990 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes, it does. What I wasn't getting was that the benefit came through ducking out of domestic debt as opposed to foreign. Yes, you could certainly use hyperinflation to screw your citizens out of all their real wealth. Couldn't simultaneously screw your creditors in the US out of theirs, at least not this way.

Thanks for bearing with me.