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comment by BANE
BANE  ·  4095 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Do physicists believe in God?

The difference between evidence and faith is that there are things to back up evidence, numbers, observations, etc. I can have faith that 2 + 2=5 but that is still wrong according to all that we have held true. And according to BLOB_CASTLE below that my thought of 2 + 2=5 would be held as equally as 2 + 2=4. And unfortunately, its the truest form of reality we have, we can say that the Hubble telescope is not the best way to view space (which is probably true, there are always better ways to do something) however that does not mean we should hold the Hubble telescope, and my do-it-yourself telescope to the same standard. Just because we have two ways of viewing/ something does not mean that one cannot be better than the other.





ultra-musketeer  ·  4095 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I might need to explain my meaning a little more clearly.

Firstly, 2 + 2=4 is a logical principle. It's a bad example to use since it's not exactly related to evidence-based knowledge. We don't get to the conclusion that 2 + 2=4 by collecting statistics and examining evidence: we don't try putting together two pairs of bricks, two pairs of horses etc. just to ensure that the principle remains invariably firm. Due to our understanding of number, when two and two are placed together, it logically follows that the sum total is four, and anything to the contrary is simply inconceivable.

My comment was based upon how we interact with reality, and how these interactions can contribute to the all-important goal of human happiness. (Because, really, what're we doing if not pursuing happiness?) I think it's indisputable that humankind has advanced tremendously, from a technological perspective, over the past few centuries. But it can still be argued that, spiritually, morally, and psychologically, we're still very primitive. Many of us follow religions that were first adapted to the deserts of ancient Palestine.

The reason why we perform a leap of faith in embracing evidence-based knowledge is this: we assume that a certain arrangement of objects, under the same circumstances, will always behave in the same way. We believe that the Earth will continue orbiting the sun. We believe that our hand will continue to respond to gravity. However, we don't know if these universal laws will continue unwaveringly into the future. I don't know for certain if the sun will rise tomorrow. The sun could have its movement intercepted by some other stellar object; the sun could explode; but, more interestingly, the laws of motion could cease entirely, and the universe could descend into a state where the rising of the sun is as unintelligible as 2 + 2=5.

Some amount of faith and superstition is necessary in order to harbour some form of knowledge. What we need to determine, is how much faith and superstition can result in the best form of knowledge; that is, knowledge which best advances our happiness and tranquility.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4095 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What ultra-musketeer is saying, if I interpret correctly, is that you have faith that 22 will always equal 4. How do you know there aren't scenarios when it doesn't? Say we're rounding. 2.42.4=5.8 thus, 2+2=5.

And I'm not saying one's better than the other as a whole. The Hubble is better in outer space, your DIY telescope is better for close up. It all depends on the circumstances I suppose.

BANE  ·  4095 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Because I wasn't using decimals, I was using the even number 2, and I know that I can hold something proven to be true over something with little/ no proof.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4095 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I can hold something proven to be true over something with little/ no proof.

Well yeah, I agree with that. But I'm saying faith is as good as truth.

briandmyers  ·  4095 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I would say that faith is vastly inferior to truth. Anyone can have faith, it requires literally nothing, and frankly does not impress me one little bit (no offense intended). Truth, whatever that may be, at least should be correct, if nothing else.

But faith and truth are apples and oranges, and not really comparable, also.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4094 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Faith requires courage.

briandmyers  ·  4094 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How so?

Preschool kids can have plenty of faith in Jesus (or Santa, for that matter), with no courage at all.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4094 days ago  ·  link  ·  

But kids still have their innocence and aren't aware of all the hardships the "real world" brings. One we've aged and know of the maladies the world contains, then it takes courage to hold steadfast in your faith when the world around you is bombarding you with contradictions.

briandmyers  ·  4094 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sounds like you're saying faith is easy for them because their faith is blind. "When I was a child, I thought as a child..."

It would take a lot of courage for a grown-up to have faith in Santa, I'll give you that :-) But I'm not sure it would be a virtue.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4094 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Right exactly. They haven't had enough experiences to contest their faith. Hahaha, yes, yes it would. I would say it is virtuosic to be so convicted of something so much so that it's walls can deflect any attack. There's something deep to admire there.

And while I say all this, it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm nearly 21, I know I'm still a little kid and my thoughts haven't had time to fully age yet either. But I feel like there's some truth to what I'm saying. So, take of it what you will.

briandmyers  ·  4094 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I have to give you a lot of credit for keeping this discussion civil - I can be a real ass sometimes, I know. Sorry about that. What I'm going to say next may test that...

To me, faith is what you demand, when you want people to stop asking questions and just believe what you're told. I don't see it as virtuous in any way.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4094 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Haha, well thank you. A discussion is exponentially more fun than an argument.

Something I learned in church a while ago is that if you're a Christian, you will doubt and ask questions about your belief at some point or another. If you're truly convicted of your faith, you'll find the answers lead you right back to where you started. Asking questions is essential for growth in any regard, and spirituality is no exception.

briandmyers  ·  4093 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I was reminded of this thread by something my wife just posted on FB. I'm interested in what you think of it.

" I believe that anyone who actually examines their belief in a god, will come to the logical conclusion that there is no support for that belief, that in fact, it is nothing more than wishful thinking and fear of death."

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4093 days ago  ·  link  ·  

My logical conclusion is that God must exist.

briandmyers  ·  4093 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Can I ask why you say "must exist" and not "does exist" ? Use of "must" implies to me that you think there is evidence of god, and I'm pretty sure there is not.

I'm not trying to be combative here, or convert you to atheism, really. It's just that if we are going to discuss this, I do take a firm atheist view. We don't have to continue the discussion if you don't want to; I wouldn't be bothered.

briandmyers  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

mk, I can't seem to reply in the leaf comments of this thread. Is that because it is nested too deeply? On comments deeper in this tree, I have no reply link any more.

mk  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We're pretty far over to the left here, aren't we?

Just an arbitrary cutoff that we haven't had much problem with before now. I can extend it a bit; however, the best solution would probably be to continue it onto another page.

briandmyers  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You mean right, not left, I guess. Yeah it has gotten pretty deep. No worries.

mk  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You mean right, not left, I guess.

Oh geez, I need sleep.

briandmyers  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I was able to reply to tng's posting from my "notifications" page, but still can't from the original post.

thenewgreen  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

no, you've just been cut off. Like when you've had too much to drink..

jk. Are you on a mobile device or computer? Just curious, this is definitely an mk question.

briandmyers  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

laptop. Win7, Chrome.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh no I don't get offended very easily.

The reason I use "must" does come from myself having a romantic mindset.

From what I've seen of the natural beautiful Earth: (my girlfriend and myself in Eagle, CO)

(Arches National Park)

And from what I've learned about the inner-connectivity of everthing in the known universe, my logic is that it had to have been created by God with an incredible plan in mind that we have no way of comprehension besides awe.

briandmyers  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'll sum up our positions from my POV, and you can point out if I'm incorrect or being unfair.

You: The universe is awesome! I assume something must have built it. I assume that something wouldn't have gone to the trouble, unless it had a master plan in mind.

Me: The universe is awesome! Let's use our brains, skepticism, and the scientific method to figure out how it all works as best we can (you probably agree with this).

The primary difference in our stances is that you make two assumptions that I don't see any justification for.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4091 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I agree completely this. I do agree with you about figuring out how to be the most effective we can be.

The primary difference is not our stances, but our outlooks, is that I'm willing to do the leap of faith to convict myself of a belief I know will bring me ridicule.

briandmyers  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Understood. I guess we just disagree. I DO agree, that the universe is wondrous, and I think it is miraculous that we humans have developed the capacity to appreciate all this, but I still feel no compulsion to believe that a magical being, who insists on remaining anonymous, built it all. Maybe that's the case, but I really doubt it. This is just the wondrous universe in which we happen to find ourselves. There's not an overarching plan, no angels or demons, no magic. Plenty of mysteries, sure, but (sadly) no magic. At least none I've seen.

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Haha I guess we honestly do just disagree. I cannot convince myself that it isn't a superior being who created all of the wonder around us.

briandmyers  ·  4092 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Do you believe this creator is the god of Abraham?

BLOB_CASTLE  ·  4091 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, there is where my own doubting comes in. That's what I've always grown up believing. As of late, I can't shake the notion that possibly we all worship the same God and over time our interpretations of his doctrine has become so skewed we've convinced ourselves there are a million different ones. But I don't know.