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comment by NikolaiFyodorov
NikolaiFyodorov  ·  315 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Onlywatch 2023

There are some truly hideous timepieces here.

(I'm actually quite taken with the Biver.)





kleinbl00  ·  314 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's very pretty. It's also an in-joke. Here, walk with me.

Eduard Meylan is like fifth-generation watchmaking royalty. I could simplify some of this but why bother because if you care, you care, and if you don't, you don't. Anyway his family has been rich since god was a kid and he likes to be a punk so he bought an old brand called H. Moser et. Cie. Observe.

At some point, 2018, 2019? Eduard got kinda sick of everyone talking about the Apple Watch all the time so he decided to troll that too.

That, apparently, wasn't trollish enough so it became the "Final Edition."

And somehow, not even that was enough so Eduard got truly nihilist with it.

Jean-Claude Biver, who is himself an iconoclast's iconoclast, may have been watching this from afar (he retires every few years, each time for the last time, the last time being 2020 I think), taken the "cheese" dig personally, and went "I mean Eduard do you have to be such a dick about it" by making a handless minute repeater that isn't a fourth-degree six-figure meme and is also kinda pretty.

I don't know. Biver does what Biver does. He basically conjured Blancpain out of his own imagination, took Hublot from an also-ran to a world-beater and saved Omega from extinction.

NikolaiFyodorov  ·  313 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That truly was a wonderful journey. Thank you for walking me through it.

I inherited a Waltham pocket watch from my grandfather, who received it from his own father when he were but a wee lad. From memory there's an inscription on the case interior that's dated to 1905 or so (though how long prior to that it was manufactured and sent out to Victoria is anyone's guess. I recall hearing that my great grandfather used to smuggle watches over the Murray River border between Victoria and NSW pre-Federation when the states were separate colonies). It's been sitting in a shoe box in my wardrobe for decades. Should I be looking out for a particular serial number?

kleinbl00  ·  313 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Did you say journey

So the world you know is one in which the Swiss are the ultimate purveyors of efficiency and luxury and Henry Ford invented mass production. But watchmaking was primarily French, which was cribbed by the British, who had a vast empire of far-flung impoverished colonies with no voting rights that labored under preposterous imperial mandates preventing local industries from competing with England.

So while Christchurch became renowned for making fusee chains (which is a workhouse horror the likes of which still blow my mind), the highly-renowned clocks of America were not permitted to be sold abroad. This, more than anything, is what led to the eventual collapse of the British Empire: by the 1750s, the Americas were something like a quarter the population of the Empire but fully fifty percent of its gross product. More than that, the lack of cheap labor in America had led to the invention of mechanization.

While the majority of British production was piecework in workhouses, Americans mechanized around factories. There was no piecework in making rifles. There was soon no piecework in making clocks. And by 1830, piecework in watchmaking was about to be over.

Americans went so hard into standardization and mechanization that no other country could compete. The British and French leaned heavily into parlor automata because they were still something that rich people bought one-off; watches and clocks, on the other hand, were largely an American affair. The British being British, of course, and the French being French, they turned to cheap labor markets abroad, namely Switzerland. Which was not at the time an ennobled bastion of chocolate drinkers but a hardscrabble frontier of Alpenvolk who still made hands in this cottage, mainsprings in that cottage, crown wheels down the street, etc.

The Alpenvolk took advantage of the Philadelphia World's Fair in 1876 to send spies to figure out how the hell the Americans were doing it; they despaired because not only were the Americans happy to show them around, but that any watch off the pile ran better than anything the Swiss could make, and they were running between 10-15% yield without rework. Henry Ford, in fact, got his start as a watchmaker and pretty much blames Waltham for the existence of the Ford Motor Company:

    In his biography "My Life and 'Work", Henry Ford recites some of his early experiences..." At one period of those early days I think that I must have had fully three hundred watches. I thought that I could build a serviceable watch for around thirty cents and nearly stalled in the business. But I did not because I figured out that watches were not universal necessities, and therefore, people generally would not buy them. Just how I reached that surprising conclusion, I am unable to state. I did not like the ordinary jewelry and watchmaking work excepting where the job was hard to do. Even then, I wanted to make something in quantity.

    It was just about the time when the standard railroad time was being arranged. We had formerly been on sun time and for quite a while, just as in our present daylight-saving days, the railroad time differed from the local time. That bothered me a great deal and so I succeeded in making a watch that kept both times. It had two dials and it was quite a curiosity in the neighborhood."

The Alpenvolk, upon seeing the glory that is American manufacturing, immediately set about to duplicate the extreme precision and economy created by factory work.

NOT

Naaah the Alpenvolk continued to use weird-ass fucking units 100 years after the invention of the Metric system because they're goddamn teutonic hillbillies. At one point another Waltham engineer decided maybe he could make a little money by going to Switzerland and teaching the savages how to actually make something that isn't a piece of shit and the hillbillies reacted so kindly that they threatened to murder him if he set up anywhere they could find him which is why IWC is the only major watchmaker in German-speaking Switzerland. It is also, notably, the only Swiss company judged competent enough to make pilot watches by the Nazis.

Switzerland had a reputation for making absolute fucking garbage pretty much up until the Japanese became the free world's whipping boy. You see all these fancy-ass Patek Philippe movements and shit in old Cartier watches but that's kind of like saying "Quartz" on the dial; they weren't considered particularly impressive at the time. What's funny is you'll see these gawdawful "marriage watches" on eBay where some dead watchmaker's drawer of old movements has been raided and someone will throw an Audemars movement in a modern case and charge $4k and they'll get it? Because people don't know that Audemars Piguet circa 1910 was heaping garbage. They had all sorts of homeopathic adaptations to watch parts that make no mechanical sense but since the hill tribe one valley over thought it was smart, why bother going to college.

But they were (and are) a tax haven, so Rolex moved there for tax purposes (and get really pissy about Swiss neutrality during WWII - read this story it's fuckin' awesome). And they were (and are) neutral so while all of American chronometry got switched over to bomb timers, nautical clocks, fuses and other weapons of war during first WWI and then WWII, the Swiss just kept on keeping on making their bullshit, and then by the time WWII was over there was no domestic American watch industry and there was a lot of pent up demand and with Japan now being the world's garbage hole, Swiss watches were no longer crap, they were imported luxury items and although it took them 100 years, and although they still speak in ligne, they finally looked over ol' Florence Ariosto Jones' shoulder and said "huh... mechanization."

And that's why nobody appreciates American pocket watches and everyone thinks the Swiss are geniuses.

SIDE NOTE: Americans weren't the mechanized monsters everyone pretends. The general approach was that you make a watch movement as interchangeable and reliable as you can, and then you hire a jeweler to make you a case which is going to be beautiful and you'll love it and won't it be glorious. Most automakers took this same approach: you had your manufacturer, who made the engine, the transmission, the frame and the running gear, and then you hired a coachbuilder to make it look cool. Henry Ford? He's the reason we can't have nice things. There would be one body, it would come in one color, fuck you. HOWEVER

It meant that American watchmakers had a powerful incentive to make things the same, make a lot of spare parts, and keep scrupulous records as to how shit goes together. Which is why even now, probably 150 years after it was made, you can unscre the back of that watch, look up a number and enter it here and get not only the year and maybe month of manufacture, but probably an exploded view, a listing of all parts, a cross-reference of parts interchangeability, and maybe even an eBay link to buy that shit new-old-stock. Because a thousand spare Model T engines? Takes up a warehouse. But a thousand spare Waltham mainstems? fits in a pill bottle.

NikolaiFyodorov  ·  310 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks kleinbl00. That was extremely helpful.

Okay, so it's not particularly rare, but then I don't suppose I expected it to be.

It's a beauty, though.

Do you know of a similar site where I can find out what year this was made?

kleinbl00  ·  310 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm not going to say a single bad thing about Waltham. The reason they aren't rare is the same reason Singer sewing machines aren't rare - they run forever and unless someone is actively buying them up and destroying them, they'll still be serviceable when the sun is a cinder. The thing that gets most of them is they get pawned, the cases get melted down and the dials and movements end up in someone's drawer, 300 at a time. Case looks like it's in great shape!

Rolex is pretty easy to suss out, too. There's a very real trend these days to leave them completely unmolested and that guy looks to be in pretty good shape. I'm going to guess inter-war, and it's probably worth $2-3k US. Most collectors like the dials left alone but they wouldn't look down on the lume being reapplied to the minute hand. How's the band holding up? That's something you should look into; the rest of the watch won't suffer from being in a drawer forever but old leather (of all critters) can dry out and die.

NikolaiFyodorov  ·  308 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Okay, so you might find this interesting.

You're right about it being inter-war. I know that my great aunt gifted it to her husband in 1937 (and as you can see from the wear on the back, he apparently wore it pretty constantly until his death in 1987).

There is no serial number between the lugs on the watch.

When I pull it out of the case, it looks pretty.

The inside back of the case has a number, but 51177 doesn't seem to match up with the site you linked to.

Then, when holding it in the light, you see another number, scarcely discernible. Looks like N1925, but that doesn't get me anywhere, either. A few numbers appear to have been scratched in there, actually (none of which are easily distinguishable).

Edit: Of course the date on the inscription may not have been the year Phyllis actually gave Charl the watch. 51777 puts it bang in 1938, and she might have given it to commemorate their first year anniversary or similar. That would make perfect sense. Thanks for your help.

Edit 2: It actually looks remarkably like this one circa 1930 (albeit much more loved).

kleinbl00  ·  308 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Jonathan Dillon April 13, 1861 Fort Sumpter was attacked by the rebels on the above date J Dillon April 13, 1861 Washington and thank God we have a government Jonth Dillon.

Watchmakers do this thing? when they service your watch, they scratch whatever the fuck they feel like in the case back. Or they used to. I don't know anyone who does anymore. But fuckin' hell back in the day you were lucky if they restrained themselves to the year and their initials.

I became known for not throwing away ladies' watches. That got me bags and bags and bags of ladies' watches. I probably have fifty? Seventy? And I've taken a half-dozen apart in an attempt to fix them and get them back together (I have failed each time; working on a pocket watch is one thing, working on a wristwatch is quite another, but working on a ladies' watch is something that every watchmaker I know except two refuse to do).

And this one?

Angie wore it for more than 20 years. I know 'cuz there's more than 20 years between the service marks. She had it overhauled at least three times. It was never worth more than a couple hundred bucks. And that right there was where I decided the proletariat needed watches too - something they could keep, something worth hanging on to.

That, and the bracelet I restored on something worthless that belonged to someone's grandmother.

That and the 1972 Lorus I painstakingly refurbished because someone's dad wore it for 35 years.

That's a Rolex Prince, by the way. They're Collector favorites because they're one of the few examples of Rolex stepping outside of their box (recently, anyway).

NikolaiFyodorov  ·  306 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Fucking fascinating. There's a PhD waiting on watch inscriptions that needs to be written.

You've now taught me a lot about my increasingly awesome Rolex watch and I've decided I'm going to wear it a lot more than I have been (it works fine in terms of accuracy - provided I wind it daily). Part of my reluctance to wear it has been the erosion on the back - you can see in the image that there's a hole in the case, and I'm anxious about sweat or rain getting in and corroding the mechanism. Presumably I could get a goldsmith or someone to electroplate the back, but I don't want to damage the inscription. Also money, but in the past couple of years that's been less of an issue.

kleinbl00  ·  306 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think you owe it to yourself to take it to the local Rolex dealer and say "this was my grandfather's watch, I think it's awesome, I would like to wear it in a responsible way that will not harm it, what should I do to keep it happy" and they will say "welcome to the family you are our favorite form of customer excuse us while we all geek out about your watch go over there and look at new rolexes for a few minutes and then come back so we can all be excited about this marvelous ancient treasure together."

An overhaul should be $400-$600. Fixing the back shouldn't be more than a couple hundred. The oil used in watches gets kinda funky after 10 years; it won't hurt anything but a 10-year overhaul cycle is de rigeur.

NikolaiFyodorov  ·  302 days ago  ·  link  ·  
kleinbl00  ·  301 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You got mail

NikolaiFyodorov  ·  306 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You've convinced me. This place is right around the corner from the office I'm supposed to be working at today, so I'll put on a proper pair of trousers and head out.

Also, you've had what sounds like a colossally shit week. I can't say much other than that I'm always grateful for the chat and I hope things turn around for you asap. Next time I'm in the US we seriously need to have beer.