a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  426 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: A post for chat gpt




user-inactivated  ·  425 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The deeper I went into that LessWrong site, the more I felt I was in over my head, but not in a way that would matter. Just this strange, uncomfortable feeling that I wasn't where I belonged.

You expand on this further down in that very link and pointed me towards why I felt 'off' reading the posts. It's not really a place for learning.. At least in one of his posts, Yudikowsky was dealing with his past-self and the associated inaccuracies and I thought "Oh cool, here he is, admitting fault and progressing."

But maybe I'm assigning too much goodwill to that. I can shit on my teenage self quite comfortably, he can't defend himself. And he was really dumb. But both my dumb past-self and dumb current-self are at least comfortable being wrong and learning from it.

kleinbl00  ·  425 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

(rolls eyes)

(sighs)

(pours cup of coffee)

So look. Once upon a time, American conservatives believed in welfare. Conservatives believed that if you wanted to see what capitalism could do, your best move was to unchain your captains of industry from the social morass. It's not that conservatives liked poor people, it's that they figured the whole point of government was to get the waste people out of the way of the ubermensch. That all changed with William F. Buckley and The National Review, and it all changed with Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged.

Buckley was the son of an oil magnate who did well in the Mexican coup of 1914. Rand was the daughter of a pharmacist in St. Petersberg who did poorly in the October Revolution. Buckley was of the opinion that the rich owed poor people in general nothing, and poor brown people less than nothing. Rand was of the opinion that poor people will come with guns and take away everything so get yours and defend it with your life.

But you can't say that without circumlocuting around it so they invented a whole new language for "fuck poor people." They smothered it in intellectualism, terminology, metaphor. What, according to Rand's biographers, is Objectivism? "the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute". Buckley, for his part, burst onto the scene by claiming that Yale was full of godless communists who refused to let good Christians practice their god-given selfishness.

Sometimes they let the mask slip. Rand called John F. Kennedy a fascist for coming up with the Peace Corps. During the '80s, the most outwardly flagrant decade of "objectivism" or "compassionate conservatism" or whatever, Ivan Boesky said "Greed is all right, by the way. I want you to know that. I think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself.”

The thing is? It's nothing but intellectualized selfishness. It is the core principle that you are the center of the universe, you should own it, and you should expect everyone else to do the same. Rand called it "the Virtue of Selfishness" and "objectivists" spent the next sixty years arguing about whether she really meant "selfishness" because it's really hard to see "selfishness" (or "greed" for that matter) as anything but a pejorative. Rand didn't give a fuck, she was on the losing side of The Terrors.

Objectivism is this thing teenagers fuck around with because teenagers are isolated, pampered and circumscribed by more rules than adults. In general, objectivism goes by the wayside as soon as your place in society becomes rewarding but some people get stuck.

If the only place you have friends is online discussion forums, you are more likely to get stuck.

Yudikowsky is younger than I am. He caught that tail end when things were switching from UseNet to MySpace. Usenet had no formatting and the only thing you could distinguish yourself with was your ability to argue; MySpace had pictures so it was all over as far as nerd culture was concerned. IN MY OPINION this drove the can't-get-laid types deeper underground where the only place they could find any friends was among themselves. And, since "themselves" were generally over-clever, socially-awkward people who didn't get invited to parties, I-Me-Mine became the obvious guide star. You can't talk about Reagan, though, that's what your parents are doing. And you can reference Rand but you're doing something new and exciting. And nobody will listen to you but your online friends so you basically go Philosophical Incel.

Incels can't get laid not because they suck at life but because there's something wrong with women. Objectivists can't get ahead not because they lack the empathy that most people use to form bonds but because society is broken. And, much like Incels sprayed all over society with GamerGate and Elliott Roger and Enrique Tarrio and all that bullshit, the Objectivists gave us LessWrong and SlateStarCodex and Nick Land and latter-day accelerationism and this whole constellation of entitled white bullshit. If you want to see what that looks like among the dipshits who aren't posturing intellectuals, this is the book. If you want to see what it looks like among the dipshits who are?

Look. The protective coloration used these days is "effective altruism.". Here's how that works:

    Effective altruism emphasizes impartiality and the global equal consideration of interests when choosing beneficiaries. This has broad applications to the prioritization of scientific projects, entrepreneurial ventures, and policy initiatives estimated to save the most lives or reduce the most suffering.

Sounds great, right? It's altruism, but it's effective, because you're being impartial! You're saving the most lives! You're reducing the most suffering! And you're doing it this way because you know better!

The definition of "effective" and "altruism" is just as tortured as "selfishness" was under the Objectivists. Hitler was an "effective" "altruist" because humanity would benefit from a world without Jews, since Jews were inferior. The living standards in the United States and Australia are substantially better now than they were when the place was full of aboriginals, and so much more population is supported - objectively speaking, genocide is good! Can't say that out loud, though. Far better to spreadsheet that shit so you can talk about which genocides you can slow down with the least amount of intervention.

Here's the problem. They all want to be Hugo Drax. That's the whole schtick. Elon Musk moving to Mars. Peter Thiel on his tropical island. They know better than you - they are "less wrong" - and obviously only the most credible rubes believe in a second coming while true geniuses know that it's the AI we have to worry about.

And I wouldn't give a shit? Here's the punchline about Roko's Basilisk.

...see, that's Harlan Ellison's most famous story. "Roko" was fucking trolling. "There's nothing to attract a troll quite like a posturing pseudointellectual who thinks he knows better than everyone else," he said, tongue-in-cheek. But you either learn from that?

Or you give Sam Bankman Fried billions of dollars.

    For as much good as I see in that movement, it’s also become apparent that it is deeply immature and myopic, in a way that enabled Bankman-Fried and Ellison, and that it desperately needs to grow up. That means emulating the kinds of practices that more mature philanthropic institutions and movements have used for centuries, and becoming much more risk-averse. EA needs much stronger guardrails to prevent another figure like Bankman-Fried from emerging — and to prevent its tenets from becoming little more than justifications for malfeasance.

Fundamentally? It is now, has always been and shall always be "It's okay that I'm a selfish fuck because I'm smarter than you." In any reasonable society that gets you pilloried. In shareholder capitalism that gets you a board seat.

And that's why it will never be okay.

user-inactivated  ·  424 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That's a really good takedown of Longtermism. I've only heard about it kinda tangentially, but wow is that insane.

Not defending any of the other rationalists which I haven't read, and certainly not the commenters who are generally awful. (Where, besides Hubski isn't that the case though :p)

I really do think Slate Star Codex is decent however, even if most of the rationalist stuff is kinda crazy if you take it too seriously. His recent politics stuff is obnoxious enlightened centrist bs. But he posts his ballots (democrat where it matters), is in favor of UBI, works a job as a therapist, and donates to charity. Most of the top posts on the old site are at least interesting if not unassailable.

Idk why I'm even posting this,

but really do think that Slate Star is above the rest, and tries hard to be reasonable and empathetic most of the time

kleinbl00  ·  423 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I have a friend who is a psychologist by training. We have had a number of wide-ranging discussions about Jordan Peterson because back before Dr. Peterson broke into the collective consciousness as the incels' favorite daddy figure, he had some useful and innovative things to say about psychology to psychologists. Or so my buddy tells me.

I haven't read any of these books or journal articles or whatever. I never will. I'm not a psychologist and I don't really need an excuse to figure out why the public has it wrong about Jordan Peterson. 'cuz the thing of it is? Jordan Peterson's audience, and his engagement thereof, has greatly overshadowed whatever Jordan Peterson was before.

I used to cross swords with a couple people back in the old days on the screenwriting boards: Craig Mazin and Laura Loomer. Craig Mazin was an asshole whose biggest credit was Scary Movie 4 at the time while Laura Loomer was a vaguely caustic clueless idiot. Craig Mazin, of course, has gone on to create Chernobyl and write The Last of Us, as well as a bunch of snarky shit about his college Roommate Ted Cruz. Laura Loomer meanwhile is now one of the batshittiest of the batshit on the right.

I've read a bunch of Slate Star Codex. I think the dude is occasionally insightful. I also think he's been playing to his audience a lot, and I find his audience to be problematic. This is my issue with Jordan Peterson as well - whoever he was before, he's well aware of who he is now. Craig Mazin before, in my interactions with him, was probably this guy who was super-pissed off that his shitty roommate was now the solicitor general of Texas, while he couldn't do awesome shit like Chernobyl and was stuck writing sequels to Scary Movie for money (at the time we figured he wrote Balls Out just to get revenge on all of Hollywood). Laura Loomer meanwhile was just someone who hadn't figured out how to grift her way to the top of the Nazi Party. I'd probably be sick to death of assholes like me if I were Craig Mazin, and if I were Laura Loomer I'd be impressed by myself.

I think everyone needs to be careful where their validation comes from, doubly so if it comes from somewhere online. The day Reddit decided to burn me at the cross? I was busy doing design work for a church in Compton. I had a choice - be my own spin doctor as shit went down, or make a difference for real people in the real world. I hesitated for about four seconds before putting my phone away and ignoring it the rest of the day (and what a day). Real world matters. Online world doesn't. It's that simple.

I think SSC has been pursuing online validation for a really long time... and I think that validation is coming from people whose validation I do not seek.

user-inactivated  ·  425 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm sorry if I made you roll your eyes my man, wasn't my intention. I'm just kind of a dumbass navigating the world.

But, as always, I appreciate your words and information!

kleinbl00  ·  425 days ago  ·  link  ·  

And I'm sorry that I (unintentionally) conveyed that I was rolling my eyes at you. I was rolling my eyes at the essay I was about to lay down, which nobody asked me to do. I just get so. Fucking sick. Of all the hand-waving and circumlocution around a philosophy that celebrates selfishness and a lack of empathy. It's never been subtle. It's always been some form of "I know what's better for you than you do." And it has never been curious or remorseful. And because they dance the dance of the seven veils around it, and change their terminology every presidential administration, you have to put out a goddamn pamphlet to really put the shit in its place.