a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by marmaduke
marmaduke  ·  4816 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Making Music by Livecoding
Recently I started using Overtone (a similar environment for making music). What struck me the most, from the musician's perspective is, after playing music on various 'real' instruments for the last .. 18 years, is that the process of composition using code is so so different:

- on a 'real' instrument, a lot of effort goes into intonation itself, but on the other hand it is immediate and accessible; with code, you have to design the sound, knowing what sin oscillator sounds like, but then you don't have to maintain the intonation in the same way that is necessary on a 'real' instrument.

- eh, for lack of right terms, complex musical elements, like melodies harmonies, rhythms, feel rather like natural movements (eg. running, walking, juggling) with a 'real' instrument, but with the same limitations: you can only run so fast, juggle so many balls. The code, on the other hand, has the feeling of being unnatural in a way that is disconcerting (why should I need to type (choose [1 3 7 12]) to express a certain musical idea?) and enabling (I guess you could call it a musical iron man suit?)

in the end, the contrast is similar to that of other domains where the computer mimics something real that we use (eg. files and folders).





thenewgreen  ·  4478 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    on a 'real' instrument, a lot of effort goes into intonation itself, but on the other hand it is immediate and accessible; with code, you have to design the sound, knowing what sin oscillator sounds like, but then you don't have to maintain the intonation in the same way that is necessary on a 'real' instrument.
This is fascinating to me, as I've recorded lots of 'real' instruments and only a bit of 'midi' instrumentation, but never have I completely created my own sounds.

When you are doing this, do you have a sound in your mind that you are trying to create or do you often just stumble upon something that sounds good by accident? Do you get specific...say, "I'm going to create a sound that mimics a Fender Rhodes being played through a 1978 Super Reverb tube amp? -This is really cool imo and something I need to verse myself in.

marmaduke  ·  4477 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    do you have a sound in your mind that you are trying to create or do you often just stumble upon something that sounds good by accident?

It's somewhere in between the two. If you've ever done any kind of improvisation (cooking, dance, not just musical) you'll understand that it's always a balance between chance and target. With algorithmic composition, for me, it's still mostly chance. There are others who know how to get exactly this or that sound, but I think the best will come when there are those who can improvise anew.

thenewgreen  ·  4477 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I know what you mean. When I am recording 'real' instruments, I take great pains to get a specific sound or tone I'm looking for. Often in my search for this sound, I find something completely different that I end up going with. Your cooking analogy is a good one too. I'll often know that I'm going to make a certain dish, put all the ingredients on the counter and end up making something completely different.

Care to share any of your work here?

marmaduke  ·  4477 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I never recorded anything, but you can find pretty good examples of livecoding on YouTube or Vimeo. The stuff from Andrew Sorenson is pretty worthwhile.
thenewgreen  ·  4477 days ago  ·  link  ·  
His stuff is really great. It's interesting to watch/listen to it unravel.

thanks

fakepalindrome  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
"after playing music on various 'real' instruments for the last .. 18 years, is that the process of composition using code is so so different"

Two sincere questions: 1. What made you decide to begin using Overtone? Will it give you something specific that weren't getting from "real" instrumentation? 2. The differences you mention make sense and seem completely valid. I wonder what (if any) are the similarities you found? Thanks.

marmaduke  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I was interested in the possibilities of algorithmic composition: you can use algorithms to generate patterns of arbitrary complexity, add randomness, vary things mathematically. With real instrumentation, everything that's heard must be played in real time, which can weigh you down if you want to put together many musical ideas at once.

Computer music uses all the same music theory, so that's not just similar but rather identical. I'd predict that when it (computer music) gets its own Mozarts and Beethovens, the musical theory could diverge. I aspired to be such a virtuoso but in end realized that the physical experience of playing an instrument was too important to lose.

fakepalindrome  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
the physical experience of playing an instrument was too important to lose. -There's something to that, isn't there. Though I must admit the world of algorithmic composition is completely foreign to me, I can see it's attraction. Limitless potential. But to me there is something to be said for the feel of the neck of a guitar in my hand or the weight of a pianos keys beneath my fingers. But these things are nostalgic because I've used them many times for years. If I were to use computer instrumentation perhaps I'd generate a nostalgia for something new. Who knows?
TheShadowFog  ·  4746 days ago  ·  link  ·  
@marmaduke Does this 'Overtone' have a linux version by any chance?
marmaduke  ·  4746 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Yeah, you only need java and jack. Check it out: https://github.com/overtone/overtone
TheShadowFog  ·  4746 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Haha. Thanks! :)
olykoek  ·  4795 days ago  ·  link  ·  
By intonation, do you mean the pitch, or the feel of the sound? [I'm assuming the latter] I've messed around with sound on the computer, and it is amazing how hard it is to make two pitches have the same texture (timbre?). I know a lot of experimental music artists (I think a lot of krautrock, specifically) claim to focus more on the texture of sounds than on the rhythm, melody, etc; I've figured electronics had a lot to do with that.

I imagine that playing a real instrument would be much more entertaining than something like live coding, just because you have to constantly create each sound.

P.S. I hope this isn't too hard to understand, and sorry for replying to your comment 20 days later.

marmaduke  ·  4746 days ago  ·  link  ·  
No it's not at all hard to understand, and I think you understand quite well what I wanted to say.. thanks for the reply!