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comment by mk
mk  ·  4585 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Ryan Now Rejects Ayn Rand-Will The Real Paul Ryan Please Come Forward?
IMHO it largely has to do with the fact that her novels construct what seems to be a rational philosophy, but in actuality, propose a suggested way of living that doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny that would put it on par with philosophies that elucidate consistent and compelling perspectives.

Personally speaking, the antogonists (like Ellsworth Toohey) in her novels are bumbling caricatures of people, and the opposing views they represent are presented in the form of strawmen arguments. Conversly, her protagonists are very romanticized individuals with few complexities and even fewer flaws. In short, Ayn Rand didn't successfully present Objectivism as a serious philosophy, and didn't make the arguments for it in a serious manner. There's more selling than convincing there. The Fountainhead is a pretty good read, though. I think it makes for an effective self-help book.

Part of the problem with Objectivism IMHO, is that it creates a false duality of human behavior and then builds an argument upon this assumption. Rand pushes that selfishness is virtuous, whereas altruism is evil. However, it doesn't take much contemplation to realize that all human interaction is comprised of actions that can best be described to have selfish and altruistic components. Furthermore, some apparently altruistic behavior can be done for selfish reasons, whereas the opposite is also true. Objectivism is simplistic, and it is difficult to apply an 'objective' logical structure to problems in any consistent fashion. You have to assume initial conditions that requires over-simplification of problems. In fact, I'd say that Objectivism in practice is really Objectivism in-the-eye-of-the-beholder, which is actually a very subjective application.





garyb  ·  4584 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Do you really think that there is no human interaction such that it is entirely selfish?
mk  ·  4584 days ago  ·  link  ·  
No, I'm sure there is. I was just saying that most human actions are probably best described as a blend of each. And therein lies the rub: it's tough to apply Objectivism without oversimplifying motivations, and it's even tougher to do it consistently.

EDIT: I should have said "almost all" or something of that sort. Accidental absolute.

garyb  ·  4584 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I thought it must have been accidental. To say anything about all of human interaction takes much contemplation. To provide a counterexample to claims about all of human interaction often really doesn't take much contemplation.

Can you tell us some examples of initial conditions that require the oversimplification of problems?

mk  ·  4584 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Sure. Some that come to mind:

Do you help organize a neighborhood watch?

How to vote on a millage for a park in your neighborhood?

Do you leave an inheritance to family, or give it to a cause, or both?

Do you pick up trash on the sidewalk?

The most selfish, or least altruistic approaches aren't clear.

garyb  ·  4584 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I'm sorry if I don't understand but aren't these examples of problems rather than examples of initial conditions that require the oversimplification of problems?

Am I correct to think that you mean to say Ayn Rand has a clear idea of the correct action in such situations? That these problems can not be solved only by considering only whether a suggested solution is selfish or altruistic? If I am correct to say that then does this not beg the question?

mk  ·  4584 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    I'm sorry if I don't understand but aren't these examples of problems rather than examples of initial conditions that require the oversimplification of problems?

They are both, I suppose.

    Am I correct to think that you mean to say Ayn Rand has a clear idea of the correct action in such situations? That these problems can not be solved only by considering only whether a suggested solution is selfish or altruistic?

I'm not sure that she would. I don't know. I gave them as examples where altruistic and selfish components are muddled, and the interpretation would differ between people.

garyb  ·  4584 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    They are both, I suppose.
I don't really know what you meant but after considering it I think that an initial condition that required the oversimplification of a problem would be something like this: all actions are either completely egoistic or completely altruistic
    I gave them as examples where altruistic and selfish components are muddled, and the interpretation would differ between people.

As I think about it more I think that an egoist would have a clear answer about what to do when faced with such problems. You seem to be saying though that this is the result of an oversimplification such as the initial condition suggested above. What I don't understand is how that is part of the problem in your opinion. When I read what you are saying it seems that you want to argue that problems are not as simple as egoists see them and that you support this by listing problems that you think are more complicated. That you perceive some problems to be more complicated is entailed in your initial stated opinion but it doesn't help me to understand why these problems are more complicated or demonstrate that they really are.

mk  ·  4583 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    As I think about it more I think that an egoist would have a clear answer about what to do when faced with such problems.

Let's be clear, that I'm talking about Objectivism, not Egoism. Egoism can incorporate relativism. Critical to my point, Objectivism suggests that there is a reality independent of perspective, and that knowledge of this reality is attainable (according to Ayn Rand), via the virtue of selfishness.

But, if you were equating Egoism with Objectivism, I'd be curious as to what some of those clear answers to the problems I proposed might be; and, more importantly, what would be the rationale (satisfying the virtue of self-interest)?

shoe77  ·  4585 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Ah okay. I have in fact only read Rand's Fountainhead and found it very inspiring in many ways. I think some parts of what she talks about in the book is applicable, such as having integrity to oneself. But from what I've heard, Atlas Shrugged is more in tune with her Objectivism. I will have to read it one day. Nevertheless, the call for achieving humanity's full potential, I feel, is the central theme of Rand's Fountainhead that makes it so appealing, and thus, making it interesting to many people. Her means of achieving it, however, I guess, is not widely accepted. One more thing to add: I do not think people should judge certain written works of her's as outlandish. Her prose is very unique and beautiful. Ad hominem attacks should not be considered when debating the reputation of one's works. That is all. Thank you.
mk  ·  4585 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I thought Fountainhead was a much better book.

I agree that Rand makes a convincing case that an individual is best and happiest when realized. I don't find much fault in that. But she does suggest a very particular brand of self-realization, which isn't easy to put to practice in a consistent manner. There are also the economic philosophies of the books, (and in many ways her social philosophy is an economic one), and there are some solid critiques there too.

But, I agree; if it's worth strongly disagreeing, it's worth explaining why. Rand offered something unique (in addition to some good reading), and she deserves credit for that.