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comment by j4d3
j4d3  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Gun sales loopholes that should be closed

If you think Dylann Roof should have been able to buy an assault weapon, I'm not sure we're going to find common ground.





user-inactivated  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

Howdy j4d3! I hope your night has been going well. Do you mind if I throw some advice your way? It seems like the subject of gun control is a very important issue for you and even though you and I are on separate pages here, I really want you to feel encouraged to explore the subject. It's an important issue that affects a lot of people, I think not only here in The States, but worldwide. So if you could give this an honest read, I'd much appreciate it.

One of the crazy things about guns and discussing them is that everyone has an opinion on the subject and those opinions vary wildly. There are people out there who believe that the world would be a much better place if we beat all of our swords into plowshares, while there are others who want to hold steadfastly on their rights to purchase, own, and enjoy firearms with little to no interference. Then there are people in the middle ground, like me, who believe that guns have their place, but that temperance and well thought out laws in regards to guns also have their place. So here's where it gets crazy. When it comes to talking about guns, no matter what position you take, if you want to talk about them seriously, you really need to know your facts. There's tons of them out there, and whether you're pro gun or pro gun control, there's someone that can out debate you on the subject if you're looking to fight about the matter.

I want to preface this by addressing your response to yellowoftops insightful post.

    If you think Dylann Roof should have been able to buy an assault weapon, I'm not sure we're going to find common ground.

It's awesome that you understand where your viewpoints are and where they might clash with others when it comes to terms of opinions. When you understand what your own personal biases are and why they are what they are, you can use that knowledge to help reduce the kneejerk reactions you have when it comes to discussing issues you care deeply about. That said, as yellowoftops has pointed out, this particular crime was committed with a handgun and not an assault rifle. That's a very important distinction to make, as the types of firearms people can purchase do vary based upon factors such as state and federal laws, as well as the age of the purchaser.

I'm kind of getting the idea that you think our government is loosey goosey with creating laws when it comes down to guns. The fact is, you couldn't be further from the truth. Guns here in The States are tightly regulated, some states (California for instance) being much tighter than others (Wisconsin). However, even the "less regulated" states have tons of laws that say what you can and can't do with guns. If I went into every last bit of detail and went and pulled up sources for everything, we'd be here all night. Suffice to say, there are laws that regulate the purchasing, selling, shipping and transportation of guns, modifying guns, and on and on and on. Most of those laws are federal, though individual states have a lot of say in the matter as well where they feel it is prudent. Speaking of State laws, some states have even stricter laws than the federal laws. Then there are things like state reciprocity laws in regards to concealed carry, that is if you live in Wisconsin and have a concealed carry license, that license may be considered valid in some states and not valid in others. For the people who own firearms and have a respect for the law, there is a lot to know and take in, and while a lot of people might gripe saying that some laws are too ridiculous, for the most part they'll follow them because the consequences of neglecting to do so can be quite severe.

If you want, what I'm going to do is stop here, because I don't want you to feel like I'm lecturing you. I am however going to throw a few links your way for you to peruse if you so wish, and I do hope you do because I think it's great to be well informed on the issue of guns. I will tell you though, that I'm no expert, so if you want to get deeper and more detailed information, you might want to find yourself someone a bit more qualified. I promise you though, they're a dime a dozen so you wouldn't have too hard of a time doing so.

The federal agency that oversees the sales of firearms is the ATF. Some people would argue, though I wouldn't know myself, that out of all the federal agencies the ATF is full of the most strict and hard assed agents.

Form 4473 is the standard "Background Check" form that every person has to fill out every time they purchase a firearm through a licensed gun shop. It goes into the basics like name, address, etc. and then it gets into some finer details, such as criminal history. While it's a felony to lie on this form, some people get around it through "Loopholes" such as purchasing a gun from a private seller or having someone purchase a gun in their name on your behalf, also known as a "Straw Purchase."

The Second Amendment Foundation is a foundation that is concerned about protecting the rights of gun owners. What the EFF is to technology, they are to guns.

The NRA started out as a sportsman group but it eventually became the biggest gun lobbyist group in The States. I feel it can honestly be argued that at this point, they're more concerned with the rights and interests of gun manufacturers than they are concerned with the rights of individual gun owners, but the waters on this issue are a bit murky, as they're closely tied together.

Here's a breakdown on Concealed Carry and here's a breakdown on Open Carry. To the very right of the Open Carry link is a list of a ton of articles about the various Gun Laws that have been passed in The States over the years. It's definitely worth checking out if you have a free Sunday afternoon.

I really feel like I'm bombarding you with a wall of text here, so I'll leave things as they are. However, I want to encourage you to keep on talking about this issue in hopes that not only will you be able to sharpen your own debate skills on this particular subject, but can also come to a better understanding about guns, the rights of gun owners, and laws in general. I hope you're having a great night man and I hope you keep doing what you're doing, cause let's face it, you're kind of awesome.

j4d3  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The assault rifle thing was based on yellowoftops' comment, wherein he suggested that limits on quote-unquote assault rifles shouldn't exist, and that if a background check doesn't go through in three days, that person should get a gun. Ipso hence-o, Dylann Roof should have an assault rifle.

I'm not reading much past that part of your comment, as it's dinner time, and I'm not interested in arguing about this with people who suggest that I don't know what guns even are. My dad killed himself with a gun. I "grew up with guns". I know what they are.

user-inactivated  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The assault rifle thing was based on yellowoftops' comment, wherein he suggested that limits on quote-unquote assault rifles shouldn't exist, and that if a background check doesn't go through in three days, that person should get a gun. Ipso hence-o, Dylann Roof should have an assault rifle.

Ah. Gotcha. I didn't catch that part.

    I'm not interested in arguing about this with people who suggest that I don't know what guns even are. My dad killed himself with a gun. I "grew up with guns". I know what they are.

You do what you need to, you be you. I'm really sorry for your loss. I can't stress that enough.

Though in my defense, I didn't say I think you don't know what guns are. I'm just trying to help you get a better base understanding of some of the laws, issues, and concepts around gun control as you seemed to have struggled formulating strong arguments in the last gun thread you posted. The links will stay up there for you to use if you want to check them out, if you don't though, I understand.

Here's hoping you have a great night though and that you enjoy your dinner. I bet it's both delicious and filling.

j4d3  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sorry to spring that on you in the interest of brevity.

The assault weapon distinction in particular is an NRA talking point, and it is frustrating to try to persuade people who think they're for sensible gun control except NRA talking point 1, 2, and 3.

tla  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I can't get used to the main concern being the loss of guns, rather than the loss of life.

Where I'm from, guns are regulated. They're also used for sport, and hunting. We respected guns enough to know when enough was enough. We valued people's lives more.

user-inactivated  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, to be honest tla, it's not just about the concern of the loss of guns. It's also a concern about what a lot of people view as a general erosion of personal rights. When you combine that with an inherent, culturally ingrained distrust of the government, things start to get real sticky real quick.

tla  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That's what you get when you make things a right not a responsibility.

user-inactivated  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's okay to disagree about gun ownership, but that's actually kind of an unfair statement to make. As I was explaining to j4d3, here in The States law abiding gun owners have a ton of responsibilities because of both State and Federal regulations. We're not as willy nilly about guns as a lot of people, Americans included, think. When you couple that with the fact that there are a multitude of factors that preclude a person from being allowed to legally purchase a gun, it really isn't a black and white issue at all.

tla  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I mean the right to bear arms. Which is laid out with explicit mandate that it needs to be well regulated. One of these bits tends to be forgotten.

user-inactivated  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, the 2nd Amendment reads as . . .

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

So the "well regulated" part isn't about regulating the right to bear arms, but maintaining a strong militia. Where people get upset about gun regulation is the part that says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Many people see any laws that dictate what we can and can't do with firearms as exactly that, infringing. The whole issue is very difficult as you can no doubt guess. The brevity of the amendment has left it up for a hot, contentious debate for pretty much the whole history of the nation. Wikipedia actually has a great breakdown on the issue.

tla  ·  3170 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, a well regulated militia doesn't go around shooting up schools or churches. While that keeps happening, one part of that bargain isn't being kept.

user-inactivated  ·  3170 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The concept of a militia is so archaic at this point that we don't even have well regulated militias anymore. We have a standing army. And a standing navy. A standing air force . . . the marines. Hell, we even have the Coast Guard, so isn't that like 2 navies?

At any point, unfortunately a lack of guns doesn't necessarily mean there won't be tragedies involving schools and other large public places. People who want to be brutally awful will find a way.

tla  ·  3170 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It won't eliminate people hurting each other. lt will make them less deadly. Guns make it so much easier.

user-inactivated  ·  3170 days ago  ·  link  ·  

War and I both discovered, in the last gun thread that j4d3 posted, that the potential effects of Gun legislation can be ambiguous at best. Australia seems to be a decent case study, though I have to admit that's the only one we really looked in depth into. I think maybe tomorrow, if I have some free time, I'll read up on how gun laws have affected various nations.

War  ·  3170 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If you do end up researching this in-depth and posting your findings to Hubski, throw me a shout-out I'd be very interested to read your analysis.

user-inactivated  ·  3170 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sure thing. Though, I have to say, this kind of thing isn't my forte, so I might have people correcting me left and right or I'll end up making edits as I go along. Such is life.

War  ·  3170 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think it will definitely be an interesting discussion to follow.

j4d3  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

O Canada. (Or maybe not?)

I know lots of people who are mentally solid and careful who like to hunt. It's how very, very easy it is for everyone else to get guns that worries me.

tla  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  
user-inactivated  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, as I said in the other thread, I'm all for closing both the Gunshow and the Private Sale loophole. I think both of those are perfectly sound, logical steps. The whole background check completion act also seems like a good idea. Though the concerns that many have, as illustrated by yellowoftops, are indeed valid and shouldn't just be brushed aside. We've seen lately just how little the government really cares about the rights of individuals when it comes to things like privacy (NSA) and jurisprudence (Civil Asset Forfeiture) among other issues. We have a right to be wary.

user-inactivated  ·  3171 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't think he should have been able to buy an assault weapon. He didn't in the first place, he bought a pistol. But I don't think he should have bought that either. I think the FBI should have done their duty in the background check within the allotted time and stopped him right there.