I will say that it is probably a good reminder to everyone that most everything discussed here is from the worldview of the consumer, or those outside of the porn world looking in, and stems from some comparison of your own personal sex life, your relationship with the images that may or may not exist of yourself that mirror, to some degree, those seen in porn. I just want to respond in kind to some of the statements made because, whenever I see an article or statement by a porn star/sex worker etc., it's always read as some absolutist truth about the nature of the typified person that would participate in such a workforce. My partner does porn, runs her own website and films for other content providers. Many of my good friends do porn, cam shows, have done "rough sex" genre porn at places like Kink.com, so a few of the things said here I am taking a bit personally. I've talked with a few of my friends about the article (stuff like this makes the rounds pretty quickly) and, even amongst a vitriolic feminist, sex-positive, pro-porn crowd, the way that the author tries to contend with the issues at hand seems a bit trite, and annoying that whenever pornographic revelations are made, it always has some appeal to normalcy in the exposition (typically some girl-next-door type that "confesses" or is outed). The wellspring of negative attitudes that shore up against their actions (and this is with family and friends from before they did porn, not just strangers on the internet), which are seen as "wrong" or "bad", typically without reasonable argument, but just simply negative based upon their participation, are mostly ignored or dealt with in a congenial a way as possible. The negative comments and attempted degradation by proxy from some asshole is seen as just a thing that will just happen, and the stigma and negative backlash does not come as a surprise anyone I know. The thing about this degradation is that it is not simply limited to those that participate in "rough sex" porn. Every female-bodied person I have known has experienced some sort of forcible degradation, being called a "slut", groped, being forced upon, especially so whenever a woman is shown enjoying herself in a sexual context (ie. fwb/exes being raped, women molested on a dance floor in a short skirt, strippers coerced into illicit activities). The degradation porn aspect of it may just act as a lightening rod for this type of feedback, and it should come as no surprise that those attracted to degradation would also participate in it. However, her complaint does not lie with those who viewed the porn and responded to it after having sought it out purely for it's content, but instead with the supposed "normal" interactions that could have occurred between her and many of the male students at her university that now accost and now abuse her, as well as the perceived (though I don't believe this is true myself) egalitarian internet/twitter interactions with a blind populace as to her sex work. Her response to patriarchy (and more so rape culture) has less to do with the feedback being less than positive, but from outside observers having the revelation that a "normal" person participates in such an "unscrupulous" activity, that somehow this allows the response as seen to be normalized, and before, as a consumer, it is much more so as an "us and them". This type of feedback that she is responding to is not limited just to an "outed" sex worker, but any such female-bodied person or anyone who reads as "submissive" or enjoys some type of "abuse" (not just abusive porn, but just the mere participation in porn elicits this reaction from people, as if they are abused, and if it is made known they are not, they are labeled obtusely with such things as "whore", "slut" etc.) as a result of patriarchal culture who can only respond to sex-positivity with derision and unwarranted abuse. As for the empowerment aspect, kleinbl00 is correct that "Porn is about power. Sexual dynamics are about power. Rape is about power." There are very good reasons, however, that two of these are considered "okay" and one is definitely "bad/evil" and I really shouldn't have to expound upon that much to understand why. The dialectics of power in sexuality and porn are managed by all participants in them, for good or bad, depending on their person. It is a difficult world to mitigate when you discover that your sexual preferences lie towards a more submissive ("bottom") style of interaction. Some people enjoy being abused, whether it is being choked, tied up, urinated on, or what-have-you, but this always lends those who retain the permission and ability to do these things ("tops", daddies, etc.) to abuse, in an unwarranted manner, the permissions allowed them., and this is why the carefully crafted world around BDSM of safe-words, safe spaces and references are so resilient.If you're taking money to be degraded on camera, you can't act surprised when people who are titillated by your degradation attempt to degrade you, nor can you make sweeping arguments about "the patriarchy" while simultaneously arguing how empowering it is to get paid to get peed on.
kleinbl00
That does not make the perspective invalid. Pornography is a two-sided transaction between producers and consumers. Neither are immune from criticism. Both are entitled to their opinions. And I've dated three strippers and did installs at strip clubs. No, but that's the discussion at hand. Women are degraded every day but only a certain subset voluntarily sign up for it in exchange for money. Let's keep our eye on the ball. Right. Her complaint is that the anonymity that protected her from the stigma she was being paid for vanished and she is now being stigmatized. Riddle me this - you've got lots of friends that do porn. How many people do they tell they do porn? Do they advertise their participation in porn? Do they put it on credit applications? The stigma associated with porn is nothing new - I'd even argue it's decreasing. That doesn't mean it's going to go away just because you want it to. If it did, there wouldn't be as much money in it. This is an assertion, not an argument. Can you back it up? And this is not just an assertion, this is a groundless assertion. I've known my fair share of kinks and to a man/woman, they didn't face any consequences unless they advertised it. LoveLine first went on air 10 years ago; Dr. Ruth started more than 30 years ago. "Kinkiness" does not have the stigma that "pornographic entertainer" has.I will say that it is probably a good reminder to everyone that most everything discussed here is from the worldview of the consumer, or those outside of the porn world looking in, and stems from some comparison of your own personal sex life, your relationship with the images that may or may not exist of yourself that mirror, to some degree, those seen in porn.
My partner does porn, runs her own website and films for other content providers.
The thing about this degradation is that it is not simply limited to those that participate in "rough sex" porn.
her complaint does not lie with those who viewed the porn... but instead with the supposed "normal" interactions... between her and many of the male students at her university that now accost and now abuse her, as well as the perceived... egalitarian internet/twitter interactions with a blind populace as to her sex work.
Her response to patriarchy (and more so rape culture) has less to do with the feedback being less than positive, but from outside observers having the revelation that a "normal" person participates in such an "unscrupulous" activity, that somehow this allows the response as seen to be normalized, and before, as a consumer, it is much more so as an "us and them".
This type of feedback that she is responding to is not limited just to an "outed" sex worker, but any such female-bodied person or anyone who reads as "submissive" or enjoys some type of "abuse" (not just abusive porn, but just the mere participation in porn elicits this reaction from people, as if they are abused, and if it is made known they are not, they are labeled obtusely with such things as "whore", "slut" etc.) as a result of patriarchal culture who can only respond to sex-positivity with derision and unwarranted abuse.
Agreed, I wasn't dismissing contrary opinions or ones that come from the viewer/consumer POV, just that, like you said, it is a two-way street and most here were writing from that perspective, and as I described, some of my friends had some issues with the way that sex workers and producers are portrayed, even in a relevatory light, so I just voiced some of the opinions I have heard and gathered from my conversations with them and experience in the environment. Again, I was merely stating my experience and where I was coming from, not stating I was some arbiter of hidden information. But this conversation is not just limited to "why are women who participate in rough sex porn degraded outside of the confines of work". The fact of the matter is that there is a difference between denigration and shame that is unwarranted, and that which is sought and enjoyed, and it seems that line gets more blurred when it comes to degradation in porn (which is a completely different form) and the degradation that happens in public in response to the participation in porn. These are two separate things and not dissimilar to derision that arises from other issues involving sexuality and expression. They're pretty vocal about it, pay their taxes listing the companies they shot with, as far as I know it's no secret to anyone they see more than once, but I do live in the SF bay area, so there's definitely a skew towards positivity and acceptance. What little I know from some older workers, there is a definite decrease in stigma, but farthest back I can attest to is mid-90s. Still pre-internet ubiqitous-ness though. Yeah, a combination of stuff absorbed through interaction and my own thoughts doesn't really make an assertion, I think I mixed up narratives with maybe something else I had read? I think maybe our personal experiences have differed some, but I only speak on what discussion I have had, my limited critical theory exposure and other reading. As far as my "submissive" comment, I wasn't just limiting the statement to mean only those who are into BDSM, but just the image portrayed, whether it be submissive men in same-sex relationships, or queers of any variety who display characteristics relegated to being "submissive." I need to learn ow to better reel in my scope sometimes. Also, "advertised" can mean a number of things to a number of people. Not just vocally espousing it, or "dressing the part", but just some simple expression which may be overlooked in some invites critique and derision in others. That does not make the perspective invalid.
And I've dated three strippers and did installs at strip clubs.
Women are degraded every day but only a certain subset voluntarily sign up for it in exchange for money.
How many people do they tell they do porn?
This is an assertion, not an argument. Can you back it up?
Here's your misunderstanding: It's not a discussion where perspective matters. We're all here talking because a member of the adult entertainment industry attempted to avoid the stigmas of the adult entertainment industry and failed. Yes, the argument is that the adult entertainment industry shouldn't be stigmatized but I'm sorry, that's never going to happen. This isn't something like apartheid or religious prejudice is an overwhelming, non-positive evil that should simply go away - half the draw of pornography is in its "forbidden" nature. Ever read Lady Chatterly's Lover? Boring damn book. But it's got a few prurient passages so OH SHIT PORN. Banned, persecuted, Victorian Bestseller's list. It's not like there weren't hookers in Whitechapel but read a forbidden book and boy howdy - what a rush. Nowadays Lady Chatterley doesn't have much on Twilight and the stigma is gone... suddenly nobody cares. So "acceptance of porn" will happen right around the time of "death of porn" for the simple reason that the taboo is the life blood of the industry. It is. The consequences of the author's actions were a known risk. They were a peril deliberately undertaken. They were a completely avoidable risk. That puts this discussion wholly and completely outside the realm of "she was asking for it because she wore a miniskirt." Both are wholly avoidable perils. Both are the direct consequence of willful participation in taboo employment. The line isn't blurred at all - it's to the left of both of these subjects and rests squarely on "monetary transaction." I think our personal experiences are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.it is a two-way street and most here were writing from that perspective,
But this conversation is not just limited to "why are women who participate in rough sex porn degraded outside of the confines of work".
it seems that line gets more blurred when it comes to degradation in porn (which is a completely different form) and the degradation that happens in public in response to the participation in porn.
I think maybe our personal experiences have differed some,
This comes into a strange intersection when brought into the world of pornography, or the filmed and produced product of these types of interactions. The "empowerment" aspect comes from those who enjoy these types of interactions (say what you want about the nature of these individuals and the origins of their desires, they are multiplicitous and you'll just like a dick because you don't expose what others perceive as your "faults" or "insecurities" for all to see) being able to participate, display them and communicate with others who also find pleasure in them. flagamuffin, insomniasexx all of my friends that do porn enjoy doing porn, and many times are getting off just as much as it looks like they are, it is not simply a matter to many of them as an equivalent exchange or "gaming" a system with their bodies, much as that may seem to be the case for the author of the article, but the use of your body and your image is a thing that is constantly considered and assessed. They get more choices than you think, and it is an actual job, plenty of makeup is applied, pills are taken to maintain erections, and time is of the essence, but those that do well just actually enjoy themselves and are having fun. Those individuals try to work with each other as often as possible, it is not for everyone and the same people have separate motivations from shoot to shoot, even. Many of the "degrading" websites that you see are, as is described, completely fictional and part of the fantasy of many participants. The ability to be able to express something that brings them pleasure and communicate that to others who enjoy that dynamic is empowering. To be robbed of the ability to participate in that, through shaming of the participant for even documenting it and presenting it, is an abuse of that power, and hypocritical of those that consume it. It is also of note that no one ever writes articles about the positive feedback and aspects of porn, and, even when tried to be viewed in a sexually normative environment, sex workers are simply just mitigating taboos and defending themselves. My partner works in a very specific genre of porn, and has cultivated an environment around her wherein she is greatly respected, and in some respects, worshiped, by her fans, so this is somewhat specific, granted. People tweet at her and email her all the time about how she has had a positive impact on their sex lives, they share her work with their partners, and her ability to express her sexuality (which she is very positive about and does not stem from insecurity) brings all parties involved a positive experience. While this comes from many occasions as monetary transaction, many see this for what it is and pay an amount to be able to maintain her site and keep getting content they enjoy and say as such. I think the biggest factor at play here, from my projection based upon experience, is that there is a border crossed with the author's experience. She one week was a "normal" girl at a college, and then it is "revealed" that she also does porn as well. She is not a "porn star" that goes to school (as some of my friends do and have never experienced the derision she has experienced, most likely due to their identification and vocalization as sex workers in their everyday lives), or just simply a sex worker who goes about her day (though they face some similar issues from time to time), but the "revelation" that she participates in pornography gives the same impression that many women face when they are "outed" as being sexually promiscuous and open, not just a specific reaction to the "pornographic" self revealed. Whenever I am out with my partner and eventually her job comes up, one of two things happen, and usually together: people who do not participate in pornography (man, woman, trans all equally) become a little more... reverent. Cis men usually get a little flustered and shyer and never have I seen anyone act negatively towards this information when looking her in the face. Sexuality itself is powerful and I can literally see how those in control of their sexuality and the ability to express it in contradiction to normative culture which typically involves some degree of shame or knowledge that this is not a typically "public" affair or topic react to it in deference. I don't believe that this is due to just some "shock value" of it being said out loud and violating some social, secretive pact, but rather just some recognition that it seems like something they could never themselves do. The strongest and most boisterous men get a little more withdrawn and respond with something like "That's cool, I'm totally cool with that" in slightly more nervous tones, and a lot of cis women light up and want to begin the second part that typically happens: the questions. A bunch of them. Honestly, most of the negative feedback comes from a couple inclusive sources: anonymous taunts and threats/whatnot or anger from family members and friends for somehow "shaming" them by proxy. I believe that the displayed person that is on a monitor, fulfilling your fantasies, and absorbing your gaze is a facet of that interaction, not of the person themselves, and the danger that the victims of harassment and shame encounter is due to "breaking down that wall" and synthesizing with those fantasies as opposed to being a proxy for them, which is the same danger that rape victims face, that they are seen as a means to an end, that they "owe" the abuser the pleasure, as opposed to a positive, equal exchange, regardless of all the aesthetics (fetishes) of the interaction. It is very telling that people, and some of you here, regard them as "victims" or just "exchanging their bodies" for profit, that promiscuity=low self esteem, because even the inverse, that they are "whores" and "sluts" (in negative terms) both play into the same facade: that pornography is unnatural and somehow negative to some degree, when in reality, it is simply outside of your terms of behavior that you are used to. Making reductionist arguments about the nature of sex in the context of porn belittles those who knowledgeably participate in it.
Caveats: Kink.com is not the most ethical site, people have reported very negative experiences with them. This goes for many other sites as well, almost all sex workers have had negative interactions of some fashion, which is not so different from your jobs, but more emotionally extreme and personal, as you can imagine. I am not speaking for all sex workers, just my experience, and I absolutely do not speak for feminists, I know there are plenty that see all porn as negative, and I absolutely do not want to take away that argument or ignore it, and my interpretation of interactions with patriarchy are very much so limited to my (white, cis male) privilege, but I empathize as much as is possible with anyone who deals with a constant culture of prejudice, so forgive me if my words or belief do not reflect yours. Seriously, I gotta eat lunch now and I've been typing this out instead of prepping for a meeting. No regrets.