a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by user-inactivated

    Inherent in this discussion is the judgement that online interaction is less valuable than interpersonal interaction. I think that depends on what value we're judging.

I think it also depends on who we're judging. I've 'met' a lot of social outcasts on the internet. Some people just aren't capable of interpersonal interaction because of mental makeup or what have you, and previously maybe they didn't have any alternatives. Now they can shack up with other people like them on the internet, where things that make interpersonal relationships click are deemphasized. You can argue that it's a bad thing that we cater to people like that when we should be teaching them to be sociable, but I think the reverse is true, that it's a good thing they can have any interactions at all. So I guess the internet can turn potential loners that were never going to have much 'real' interaction to begin with into people with friends, online or not. Very generalized, but you get the gist.

    Ignore all the "the problem is you" crap, that's not why I shared this article.

It was a shitty article, perfectly apt for truereddit. Blame shouldn't even enter the equation. I merely wanted opinions on whether their thesis was true.

I read that Daily Mail article, I think it was linked in the comments. I had an atypical childhood as far as freedoms, but I still find myself reflexively noticing and wondering whenever I see a kid who looks <10 by themselves. Especially if they're near a street with cars. This reflexivity makes me think it's a societal issue rather than a parental one -- I'm not a parent, but I still have certain thought-patterns which I acknowledge are silly but continue to have.

So a final question: is it something to "fix," as you say? On the face of it seems obvious that kids should have freedoms not limited by overbearing society and stupid curfews and expensive cars, but you make the convincing argument above that teenagers are the ones driving this trend. If they are, who are we to try and fix it?





kleinbl00  ·  3979 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Some people just aren't capable of interpersonal interaction because of mental makeup or what have you, and previously maybe they didn't have any alternatives.

Breaking this down into excessively simple terms:

Let's take ten people. Two of them are extroverts, two of them are reserved extroverts, two of them are reserved, two of them are outgoing introverts, and two of them are introverts. Note that by "introvert" and "extrovert" I do not mean "people who choose or don't choose to interact with others" as I should - I mean "people who can or can't smoothly interact with others." there's probably a better word. Humor me.

Prior to the internet, the extroverts had lots of interaction. The reserved guys had a modicum of interaction. The introverts didn't interact that much. However, chances are good that the introverts were interacting with the extroverts simply because the extroverts interact more. So in any engagement, the introverts are interacting with people who are good at interaction.

After the internet, the extroverts have lots of interaction. The reserved guys have a modicum of interaction. The introverts may very well be interacting more - but they're also interacting more with other introverts.

Without a value judgement on it, the interaction they're getting is definitely of another quality than what they would have gotten otherwise. So the question is this: are people

A) better off with minimal interactions among people who are socially adroit?

B) better off marinating in the culture of /b/?

I don't think that we can answer this question easily and succinctly. I do think that in a society where the adroit are calling the shots, the /b/tards are at serious disadvantage. And, until the Internet becomes substantially more important than, well, everything else in life, the adroit will continue to call the shots.

    It was a shitty article, perfectly apt for truereddit.

"Well put," said the 3-year moderator of r/foodforthought. ;-)

    I had an atypical childhood as far as freedoms, but I still find myself reflexively noticing and wondering whenever I see a kid who looks <10 by themselves.

At the age of sixteen, I once called home and left "Hey, it's me, I'm in Dallas, I'll be back by Monday" on the answering machine. Yet I'm of a like mind.

    So a final question: is it something to "fix," as you say?

My primary objection to the article, and I suspect my primary objection to the book (which I do intend to read) is that it's an attempt to put one factor at the root of many problems. I read Free Range Kids and I've given it as a gift three or four times. Bringing up BeBe is similarly countercultural in that it wholeheartedly suggests de-emphasizing the importance of children to the benefit of children and parents alike.

    but you make the convincing argument above that teenagers are the ones driving this trend. If they are, who are we to try and fix it?

Let me clarify that point a little bit.

Soviet teenagers wore Levi's. I have a friend who grew up in Samarkand watching bootleg American videos they paid for with equally bootleg Marlboros. Choice will find a way. The article basically makes the point that kids would love to be as normal as their parents, but their goose-stepping, paranoid parents won't let them. I'd argue that if Soviet kids can lead rock'n'roll lifestyles, over-pampered 'tweeners in Minneapolis can, too.

But they aren't. And that's the important thing - I don't think there's a lack of drive, I think there's a lack of motivation. Kids aren't socializing the same way their forebears did because they've found alternatives. Those alternatives, as argued here, there and everywhere, are a poor substitute for what came before, but the kids don't know enough to reject them.

Which means that yes - "the teenagers are driving this trend" but at the same time, they're kids. We don't let them vote, we don't let them drink, we don't let them rent a car, we don't let them join the army, we don't recognize their first amendment rights. Sherry Turkle and others have argued that without a conscious effort to re-socialize social media, an entire generation will suffer a degeneration of their socialization skills.

That's my biggest beef with Reddit, by the way. I've gone around and around with them about how to make their universe more social, more human. They don't give a shit.

Probably because they're just kids, and they're part of the problem.

user-inactivated  ·  3979 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Regarding your introvert/extrovert thought experiment, what answer would we get if we asked the group in question whether they prefer being in A or B? Which choice is objectively better is (maybe) different than which they themselves would choose.

    Bringing up BeBe is similarly countercultural in that it wholeheartedly suggests de-emphasizing the importance of children to the benefit of children and parents alike.

I couldn't agree more -- I've seen this play out so many times -- unfortunately I have more pressing things on my booklist than books about parenting, which is not a hobby I'm taking up anytime soon, so I'll have to shelve that book for now. Looks entertaining.

As for your clarification ... I get what you mean. Lack of motivation. The next generation will quite possibly have even less.