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comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  5021 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Michael Arrington: Racism: The Game
The thing about philosophy is there's nothing to anchor it. Philosophy can change overnight and not lose an ounce of credibility; different philosophers can disagree and neither suffers professionally. As to where consciousness resides, it's definitely a philosophical question; neuroscience must first decide what "consciousness" is and that, I will agree, is a philosophical discussion.

I think the root of our disagreement is that I simply don't see the danger in drawing a distinction between "what we do" and "what we think we do." The conscious/unconscious divide is hardly a new philosophical conceit and one which has helped to outline many sociological and psychological issues.





b_b  ·  5021 days ago  ·  link  ·  
You're certainly right that consciousness has been debated since the dawn of philosophy. My point about the dangers speaking in terms of the brain "doing X" rather than the person is that its essentially religion. If the brain thinks for us, then who thinks for the brain? Does the brain have a smaller brain? And what about that one? As soon as we admit this type of language, we lose control of our own destiny. We are controlled by it.

It used to be "the soul". Then it was "the mind" during the Enlightenment. Now its "the brain". Its all the same, no matter what word is used to describe it. Its dualism, and it robs us of our humanity (by saying that we lack control over our own psyche), while obscuring complex and important problems. The mind is an emergent property of the body, and they are one, not two.

mk  ·  5021 days ago  ·  link  ·  
First off, I really enjoyed this thread.

It used to be "the soul". Then it was "the mind" during the Enlightenment. Now its "the brain". Its all the same, no matter what word is used to describe it.

This is something that I haven't been able to put into words. I think that you both have legitimate arguments, and I can't help but think that we need better language to describe this. I don't consider that I am my conscious part of my brain anymore than I am the part that drives 200 miles and can't remember it.

I for one, embrace dualism, in that it means we are not more than how we relate. We needn't be internally consistent, just externally definable. The road defines my consciousness as I drive, and my friend defines my consciousness as I converse with him. You two have defined an aspect of my consciousness here. I wouldn't say that the mind is an emergent part of the body, but exists as the interaction of the body with the environment.

Arrington does have unconscious bias, and it is his fault.

b_b  ·  5021 days ago  ·  link  ·  
We can find empirical answers to questions, but only if we're not hindered by not know what questions to ask. I think dualism is a hindrance to asking the right questions, because it takes the answer out of the realm of the physical world.
mk  ·  5021 days ago  ·  link  ·  
de Broglie? :)
b_b  ·  5021 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Yes, but let's remember that a boson or a fermion isn't a wave or a particle, its a wave and a particle. Big difference!
mk  ·  5020 days ago  ·  link  ·  
That's kind of what I am saying. Our brain does things, and we as persons do things. Mike Arrington does experience unconscious bias, and he is responsible for that bias.

IMHO, if we can accept that these aren't contradictions, I think we can move forward. It's not that I don't think a self doesn't exist, but I do think that it has no seat. The more ways we can describe it, the better we can characterize it. We know what is necessary for the self, but it doesn't reside within those necessary components. It's like wheels are necessary for a car, and to make it drive, but if we remove the wheels, it's still a car.

b_b  ·  5020 days ago  ·  link  ·  
"Our brain does things, and we as persons do things."

Certainly our brain has immutable functions, without which we would not be conscious. It does not, however think, trick us, make decisions, or any of the other myriad activities or properties that are ascribed to it in both scientific and popular literature. That's my issue with using language like "our brains deceive us"; whether consciously (pun intended) or not, when this language is used, consciousness is being ascribed to the brain, which inevitably leads to the supernatural because it creates and infinitely long chain of who is thinking for whom.

caio  ·  4992 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Do you think Searle's work on intentionality would help this discussion, b_b?