For those of you unfamiliar with Theseus's Ship, it raises the questions: If part of a boat was taken away and replaced, is it still the same boat? What about two parts? What if every part was eventually taken away and replaced by another; is it still the same boat? If not when did the transition occur? What if every part of the boat is taken away and replaced, but we take the old parts and use them to make a new boat. Which is the original? Are they the same boat?
Anyway, this got me thinking.
If all of the cells in our bodies are constantly changing and dying and making new ones, why do we consider ourselves the same person as we were yesterday, or a week ago? We are made up of entirely different (albeit genetically identical) cells than we were (I believe) ten years ago, but why are we considered the same biological organism?
If a river is flowing, how can it stay the same? Every drop of water is somewhere else, taken away, replaced, added, or whatever, so the river is never the same at any given time. The river is constantly changing, and cannot be called the same, yet it is.
Maybe the river is just an illusion. I'm not saying that the river isn't there, but maybe it doesn't exist as we think it does. Rivers exist and are made up of change itself, and not the water that runs through it. The water will disappear, and maybe reappear later, but the constant flow of change is what keeps it the same.
This, of course, applies to Theseus's Ship and to us as humans.
We can't exist as one specific thing, as much as we might try to. Instead, we exist as a sum of our changing. If one part of a boat is replaced, it is still the same boat. As if every part. The new boat made from the old parts is also the same boat; both are just different sums of the same changes. We are the same as we were ten years ago because we are the vessel of change, and the change is constant and defining.
Thoughts?
"Wherein does personal identity consist, then? [...]
My overall conclusion then, is that persons in all probability to comprise in what I would call a basic sort, for which no adequate criterion of identity can be formulated"
PP. 135-6 EG Lowe - Kinds of Being, A Study in Individuation, Identity and the Logic of Sortal Terms Personally I adore this question; it's what draws me into Philosophy at the moment. How do we identify anything that changes over time? What technique we usually use for identity is Leibniz's Identity of Indiscernibles, which says that if A is identical to B then any property of A must** also be a property of B, and vice-versa. It makes a lot of sense; if Object A is orange, then we'd expect that if Object B was identical, Object B would also be orange. So what happens when I do take away a plank of wood from Theseus' ship? Does the ship lose the property of having _that_ plank of wood and so stop being Theseus' ship he sailed in on?
Loux's reply is my personal favourite. Loux claims that the moment the piece of wood was removed from the ship; it stopped being a property of that ship. If you took away all the bits of wood from the ship, there would no longer be** a ship to take objects off, but if you put a new piece of wood onto the ship, it would be adopted into the ship as a part of the ship. It solves the problem nicely, but like all problems in Philosophy, it doesn't matter if you have a solution, it matters if the solution can be applied to learn something. The issue is time, or Diachronic[Dia=Through / Chronos=Time] Identity if you want the technical term. If time had stopped, a river could be compared to be identical to another river and we would have no issue. The problem has also been stated as Heraclitus' "You cannot step in the same river twice"
Quine answers this question in From a Logical Point of View, he says that we should consider time in slices, like 2D parts of a 3D object. So when you take time slice A of a river, you can see all the water molecules that are in it at that time, and if you drive, faster than the river flows, down to a further part of the river and take time slice B, you could see all the same molecules of water in the river again. Would that be sufficient to step in the same river twice? Well that depends how we identify the river, so Quine looks at how we teach someone to identify a river. We point to many spots of say, the Tiber, and say “That’s the Tiber”, and we do it again later, at another point in the Tiber, until the person understands all the points in that river are the same river. We accept the flow of water, the process of water flowing, as what makes up that river, not what’s in the water or when we looked at it. Heraclitus’ example plays on the fact that river is a name for a temporal group of objects, not a concrete one, and so we become confused. We can** step in the same river twice, and should not worry ourselves over that.
But how does this apply to humans?
Let’s take Henry, an example from Loux.
"Henry acquires a tan. We would say that a property of Henry is the fact that he is tanned. In winter, Henry loses his tan. Henry-in-summer does not have the same property, as Henry-in-winter does"
[Loux Metaphysics]
I'm gonna borrow heavily** from Loux's Metaphysics here, using the 2nd Edition if anyone desperately wants to check my sources.
So what do we do? Obviously Leibniz's Law says they are NOT identical, but we find this very distasteful. I'd want to say I was identical to me before I went on holiday. The reason we find these views to conflicting is that we are usually acting under an Endurantist viewpoint; our parts are persisting three-dimensional individuals wholly present at every moment of their existence
An Endurantist would reply that we should describe Henry according to him at certain times. This is Henry at 13:47 Friday 20th Feb 2012 when he had a tan, so he is still identical to Henry, but not by time-specific measurements. A Perdurantist would reply to this that this measure is too steep; we wouldn’t want to have to do that to describe identity, and so the answer is one we can accept, but only if there isn’t a better one. The Perdurantist thinks there definitely is a better example; we are time segments of a single identity. We should not worry about whether we lose something, or gain something in our spatial being, only that we are linked over time to our spatial being before that.
So you would be a Perdurantist; you believe that we persist because of our change over time, not that we are one concrete entity.
You might ask who could believe the opposite. Well, anyone who believes in a soul, or anything that’s non-physical could easily conjure up a few examples of a concrete entity that happens to exist within a physical manifestation. They would say that you are not your physical entity, because you can lose your arm and not seem to be a different person, and they’d be right in that regard. To answer your question of what actually is identity, I’d refer you to the quote at the beginning; there isn’t a way to define a person’s identity. I believe this is because our descriptive terms don’t play nicely with time, but that’s my own opinion. Some people would believe that if you have enough matching properties, or matching essential properties, then you’re identical, but I feel this is too weak and likely to falter.
I swear I write all these things at 2 or 3am. I apologise for any mistakes, and I’ll clear this up tomorrow to make it more legible, but I hope that it might give you a better understanding of some of the viewpoints floating around at the moment.
I find the problem of the ship to be confused. Theseus' ship is the ship which we say belongs to Theseus. So long as we agree that is the case, then it is so. There is no inherent meaning to the phrase "Theseus' ship". It has has meaning insofar as we give it meaning. Words mean what we agree words mean, and nothing is named by God. Two corollaries from Wittgenstein: (1--from Philosophic Investigations) What is true or false is what human beings say; and it is in their language that human beings agree. (2--from Tractatus) All philosophy is a critique of language. Our descriptive terms will always be an incomplete description of physical objects, but unless we agree on definitions we are talking gibberish. Therefore, one philosopher can say Theseus' ship is such and such, and the other can say it is thus and so, and they are both correct, so long as they don't violate their own definitions.
Knew I'd forgotten something. The ship doesn't present a considerable problem in ownership, I agree in that regard. I should've named it, different from Vultiph, as 'The Ship that Theseus Sailed in On' firstly, and then Theseus' ship thereafter, because we wish to identify the ship later as identical to the ship before. If we only wish to know which ship belongs to Theseus, the problem isn't as large, and I believe your reasoning that meaning is use is correct.
I'm not arguing it is a problem of ownership. I'm arguing its a problem of definition. Perhaps that isn't clear. No matter what you call it, if we agree it is the same ship, then it is (by definition), no matter how many parts have been replaced or who currently holds the title. If not, then it is a different ship. That is my basic point.
So, you're saying that Theseus' Ship and The Ship Theseus Sailed In On are the same ship if they refer to the same object? That is to say, if we both have the same object in mind when we talk about them? I'd really like a more specific way of identifying if they are the same thing; how would we explain to someone who hadn't seen either ship the features that make them identical? Or would you say they'd accept them as identical the second we claimed them so through our use of language?
How would you explain a jury trial to someone who had never observed one? Descriptivism doesn't work, because there are more levels of understanding than an atomized one (and besides, the putative words you would use to describe a higher level concept still need definitions themselves). Thesues' ship is Theseus' ship, because we say it is. The boards from which it is made are irrelevant. There is no baser level of explaining than pointing at an object an naming it. This is how we learn language.
This just seems like a pretty straightforward problem of definitions... You get inconsistencies when you define an object by its atomic components, but the problems disappear when you re-define it by its structure or physical properties, or at least constraints on such things. Insofar as anyone cares, we can adjust that definition of an object. A person isn't defined by a shapshot of their cells at any given moment, but as the scaffold on top of which their body type, hair length, personality, etc can change over time. A river is a region that undergoes large dWater / dt in a certain area at particular times of year, be it swamped with farm runoff or plentiful fishies. When it runs dry, you re-label it as a former river, with reference to it's historical property of having once carried streams from high to low elevation.
Bam. I was about to comment that the 'thingness' of things remains because of their structural persistence. A river remains the same river not because the atoms which make it up stay the same but because water flows down the same channel. Even as the channel changes, it still changes from the old channel. Yes, fundamentally it is not the same, but only from an ahistorical perspective. Things exist in time.
Yeah, and even the snapshot of a "river" is wuzzy. Do you include the dirt within? The bacteria? Do you include the water soaked into the sand below? How far? Is the boat defined by the (hopefully minimal) amount of water soaked into its hull? It's all just a human construct and debating the nitty gritty is, in my opinion, pretty pointless.
Couple thoughts: 1) In humans, a computer seems a better analogy, with the parts being the body and the data being the consciousness. You could systematically replace every part (cell) and you'd still end up with that person/data. 2) This is coupled (and complicated) with the notion of definitions, and that regardless of whether parts-swapping even takes place at all, the "me-ness" of me is subjective, and the definition changes from person to person. Other people don't agree where I begin and end, and other people hold different definitions with regards to themselves. The definitions themselves are fluid. A person with Alzheimer's ceases to be in many people's eyes, while a person with all of their mental faculties but sever limb loss might more often be considered intact as a person with a physical caveat. I think in the aggregate, the balance of what constitutes a person leans towards the consciousness of that person according to most. 3) Our subjective definitions are formed in a pool of ignorance and altered perceptions. I don't mean we're stupid, -just much of the talk about what makes a person a person fails to bear in mind the fact that a human being is really a colony of innumerable life forms working together, and could not exists without the group of them working together. It's hard to draw the line between what is symbiotic and what is native in many cases. This also nudges us towards consciousness being the unit of the self, as it can reside on a conglomerate or individual unit of life and it wouldn't matter in a sense. For me, the ship is still the ship if every board is replaced, as long as they are not all replaced so quickly that its observers do not have enough time to assign/upkeep the same identity to it in the interim, -a process which will yield different results per person, and in many ways is reached by consensus.
1) While there is limited, recent evidence of regrowth, biology holds that the neurons you were born with are the neurons you die with. Women are born with every egg cell they will ever have. There is no total replacement. It's interesting that a philosopher would somehow touch on identity without touching on consciousness. Cogito ergo sum beyotch. 2) As a child of the southwest I can confirm that a river doesn't need a drop of water in it to be a river. It must merely travel a path from the head to the outlet without forking. Even that is often not enough and rivers end up with multiple names. The identity largely comes from navigability - "if we want to get from Ogg's village to Bogg's, we must float down the Trogg." 3) Jeron Lanier uses Theseus' Paradox to delve into AI and the Singularity. His conclusion is different than yours.
It should be noted that this does not hold true in the case of the hippocampus (memory) and subventricular (smell?) zones of the brain. Additionally, while the same cell may exist over the course of a lifetime, it still makes, strengthens, and weakens contacts with other neurons.biology holds that the neurons you were born with are the neurons you die with