I have to give you a lot of credit for keeping this discussion civil - I can be a real ass sometimes, I know. Sorry about that. What I'm going to say next may test that... To me, faith is what you demand, when you want people to stop asking questions and just believe what you're told. I don't see it as virtuous in any way.
Haha, well thank you. A discussion is exponentially more fun than an argument. Something I learned in church a while ago is that if you're a Christian, you will doubt and ask questions about your belief at some point or another. If you're truly convicted of your faith, you'll find the answers lead you right back to where you started.
Asking questions is essential for growth in any regard, and spirituality is no exception.
I was reminded of this thread by something my wife just posted on FB. I'm interested in what you think of it. " I believe that anyone who actually examines their belief in a god, will come to the logical conclusion that there is no support for that belief, that in fact, it is nothing more than wishful thinking and fear of death."
Can I ask why you say "must exist" and not "does exist" ? Use of "must" implies to me that you think there is evidence of god, and I'm pretty sure there is not. I'm not trying to be combative here, or convert you to atheism, really. It's just that if we are going to discuss this, I do take a firm atheist view. We don't have to continue the discussion if you don't want to; I wouldn't be bothered.
mk, I can't seem to reply in the leaf comments of this thread. Is that because it is nested too deeply? On comments deeper in this tree, I have no reply link any more.
I was able to reply to tng's posting from my "notifications" page, but still can't from the original post.
no, you've just been cut off. Like when you've had too much to drink.. jk. Are you on a mobile device or computer? Just curious, this is definitely an mk question.
Oh no I don't get offended very easily. The reason I use "must" does come from myself having a romantic mindset. From what I've seen of the natural beautiful Earth:
And from what I've learned about the inner-connectivity of everthing in the known universe, my logic is that it had to have been created by God with an incredible plan in mind that we have no way of comprehension besides awe.
(my girlfriend and myself in Eagle, CO)
(Arches National Park)
I'll sum up our positions from my POV, and you can point out if I'm incorrect or being unfair. You: The universe is awesome! I assume something must have built it. I assume that something wouldn't have gone to the trouble, unless it had a master plan in mind. Me: The universe is awesome! Let's use our brains, skepticism, and the scientific method to figure out how it all works as best we can (you probably agree with this). The primary difference in our stances is that you make two assumptions that I don't see any justification for.
I agree completely this. I do agree with you about figuring out how to be the most effective we can be. The primary difference is not our stances, but our outlooks, is that I'm willing to do the leap of faith to convict myself of a belief I know will bring me ridicule.
Understood. I guess we just disagree. I DO agree, that the universe is wondrous, and I think it is miraculous that we humans have developed the capacity to appreciate all this, but I still feel no compulsion to believe that a magical being, who insists on remaining anonymous, built it all. Maybe that's the case, but I really doubt it. This is just the wondrous universe in which we happen to find ourselves. There's not an overarching plan, no angels or demons, no magic. Plenty of mysteries, sure, but (sadly) no magic. At least none I've seen.
Haha I guess we honestly do just disagree. I cannot convince myself that it isn't a superior being who created all of the wonder around us.
Do you believe this creator is the god of Abraham?
Well, there is where my own doubting comes in. That's what I've always grown up believing. As of late, I can't shake the notion that possibly we all worship the same God and over time our interpretations of his doctrine has become so skewed we've convinced ourselves there are a million different ones. But I don't know.