Share good ideas and conversation.   Login, Join Us, or Take a Tour!
comment by _refugee_

    Do you actually know that one could drop down to part-time, pick their own schedule to bend around school and still keep their full benefits ?

I wasn't referring to dropping down your FT to PT to pursue a master's; I was referring to the fact that master's programs often cater to full time workers by offering part-time and all-night or all-weekend classes to help resolve specifically this problem. So, no, don't drop your FT to PT to get a degree. I'm saying keep the FT and do the extra on the PT.

I didn't dismiss people; I dismissed three incomplete stories as conveyed by a biased narrator attempting to, in at least one case (gabe's) wring despair out of a story profoundly lacking it. Is Elena's the third story I've supposedly dismissed? Funny, cuz I read about her internship and consciously decided that was part of the article I wasn't going to snark on.

I didn't dismiss people; I dismissed extremely small sets of facts about 2 people's lives, presented consciously to evoke certain feelings as well as demonstrate certain points, because I disagreed with their effectiveness.

People have conversations. People tell their own stories. Do you think Gabe would present himself to you as what he's presented here? Or Scott? I doubt it. Maybe if you were an interviewer. And maybe if you picked out the best quotes and chopped up their life facts to try and shape the story that's gonna help drive your audiences to your side.

If you want to take every anecdote in any persuasive piece as a person, and the dismissal of such as an inhumane antisocietal unsupportive callous measure worth reviling, well, go on. Enjoy embracing humanity as you see it.

I just gotta ask, is it really any anecdote in any thesis you elevate to personhood, or is it only the anecdotes in the pieces whose message you already wholeheartedly have bought, because its argument speaks to you/your experience? Because you already agreed with it entirely once you got enough skimmed sentences through it to realize what it was about?

_refugee_  ·  427 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Here's the thing. I actually think this is an interesting article with a sprawling scope which brought together pieces of this puzzle I knew before in clear, bigger-picture ways than I would have ever assembled for myself alone, at least in the span of time it took me to read this article. I think this article, ultimately, has a true, good, and fundamentally different (more evolved and holistic) presentation of the millennial problems of our generation and as such, gave value to me and will do so to others that read it. I think it should absolutely be shared and I think here's a great place for it.

I also think the article would be twice as good if it were half as long, and more effective in making its points while we're at it.

Weak shit like what I cited gets in the way of the true, important, interesting, and elucidating discussion this article makes and desires to foment. Bad filler prevents people from finishing articles. It prevents people from believing them. It prevents people from hearing them.

When you have as complete, basically-accurate, and wide-sweeping a break-down as this article presents, the false-dichotomies and superficial-anecdotes and bad, bad interpretation/misinterpretation/assumption around statistics all alienate readers who are interested, open-minded, listening -- and possibly on the fence but certainly intelligent enough to know it. Instead you attract a shouting crowd of people who already agreed with you before you spoke and will agree with you forever after.

That's not going to help anyone.

If I sound like an entitled Baby Boomer, well, I seem to remember the end of the article definitely went on about how it's not millennials that need convincing to vote for millennial congressmen, senators and laws. Millennials are kind of already down with that concept.

It's everyone else we need to get on our side to fix this shit. So are you gonna do that by telling them they're dismissing people because they point out inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and questions they have with the overall accuracy of your argument? Are you going to acknowledge where there are flaws, clarify where there's misunderstanding, elaborate where context would change an opinion, and in other words actually recognize valid concerns and work to resolve them, or are you going to brow-beat everyone who doesn't "immediately get it" and dares to question things that don't make sense to them? (For lacking empathy, fucking lol)

oyster  ·  427 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    So are you gonna do that by telling them they're dismissing people because they point out inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and questions they have with the overall accuracy of your argument?

You know you are a snarky person and you know you used snark when “pointing out ”inconsistencies” in stories told about individuals in this article. Snark is dismissive. You dismissed the idea that the testing for trades jobs is exssicve and costly by making a snarky remark about how weird it is that we expect people to be properly trained for jobs. Thts dismissive because nobody said it wasn’t necessary at all, they said it was excessive.

You dismissed the idea that Gabe truly did need to leave work to get his sister by making a snarky remark about his town with no taxis when you have no idea if that would have been allowed.

I’m not saying I’m going to blindly agree with what this article put forth, I’m saying that it’s worth realizing that you don’t know what you don’t know. I’m not going to sit around making snarky remarks about the way the world works when I have no idea. I’m not going to pretend I know that exams and costs associated with trade jobs are completely logical in every possibible way if I’ve never had to deal with them. I’m going to think well, the cost was excessive in the two courses I studied which probably is a barrier for many people who could have achieved a lot of given the chance so maybe that’s worth looking at more.

In Gabe situation I’m not going to decide he never should have left work because duuuuuuh taxis when I know very well that’s sometimes not an option and I don’t know what they gave his sister at the hospital.

How can that possibly be seen in any other way than dismissive ?

_refugee_  ·  427 days ago  ·  link  ·  

OK. So do you want to argue with me about how I don't care about what you care about, or do you want to help me understand why I should care about what you care about?

Key phrase: "help me understand"

Not: "bludgeon me with your opinion"

Right now, it's the first, and our lack of accord is a fact. Not much worth arguing about.

Sure, I was dismissive: why should I care?


I do this every day, you know. I review work and identify errors which jeopardize the overall quality of the work as a whole. There is a way to talk to people you want to come to an understanding and work with, and there are infinite ways to ensure you will hate each other and never see eye to eye because of personal grievances.

When you react to perceived criticism emotionally, you automatically lose the chance of convincing the person you're talking with.

Most people aren't deliberately trying to get you upset.

They just don't understand.

Hear them.

oyster  ·  427 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The short version: Being dismissive means you give up opportunities to learn something that might benefit you personally or might benefit your ability to influence the other side. Sometimes I'll just throw out an experience of mine and close it with an actual point and sometimes I'll just leave it open as something to just be thoughtfully considered. I do feel like I've affected peoples opinions that way so I do think this article has merit for that reason.

Remember our last conversation ? I may not have articulated my point as clearly as I could but my basic point then was maybe both sides have a point, or maybe there's more behind what somebody else is saying. People have arguments all the time where two people don't even disagree, they just think they do because they dismiss it before they really get to understand each other. The author likely wasn't saying that all licensing exams are silly but some definitely are. Dismissing that argument means we loose an opportunity to learn about just how silly these tests can get. I think very few people in the history of debating have put forth an argument that was 100% correct or 100% wrong.

I have a lot of fairly conservative friends which just comes from where I grew up. I've argued with plenty of them as if they were completely wrong and my side was right and it doesn't work. It just devolves into insults and stupid memes. I used to argue with this one girl about abortion mostly because I knew she was only being all pro-life on the internet to make this girl who had an abortion feel like shit so fuuuuuck her. No amount of smart things I said mattered until I appealed to her worldview and then twisted it to make her see how my side actually supported her worldview. I wasn't asking her to reevaluate her worldview, just her projection of it which is a hell of a lot easier. A lot of people give the Clinton's shit for saying abortion should be safe, legal and rare because it's the opinion of the middle ground. It's a compromise but it feels like a knife in the back to the women who feel like saying it should be rare still makes it sound shameful. Thing is though, the people who subscribe to that kind of feminism are wasting good opportunities to bring people to their side even if it takes baby steps. There is almost always a solution that neither side is fighting for but both would come to if we just hear out each side and ask questions. I mean consider Gabe, the first two times he had to leave work would have been counted as me leaving early because I was sick, not used as strikes against me. Could he have found another way that didn't mean he had to leave work ? Possibly but maybe he wasn't that nervous because he didn't realize his employers were total asshats. Or maybe he never called in on those days and is withholding that little tidbit of information. If we assume he is being truthful it is possible to hold both opinions that he should have called a cab BUT he shouldn't have been fired since the two times he left sick shouldn't have counted against him so this would just be his first strike.

Going back to abortion because it's the easier example of emotional connection and a lot of people will have some personal experience that dictates how they feel about it. It pays to understand why the person who was a 100% unplanned pregnancy has some internal conflict with pro-choice even if they feel bad about it. We could dismiss this person but we could also think ya that's fair on account of them having to evaluate their entire freaking existence. The "do what you want, it doesn't hurt me at all" line of thought is probably harder to swallow when you have to think if you would be alive had things been different when you were conceived.

I have another friend that probably would have voted for Trump had he been American, I doubt he would now. We've had respectful conversations where neither of us felt shut down which gave us the opportunity to actually understand the other person and understand how to actually craft our sides to appeal to them. I was never dismissive of him and that's why we could have positive conversations.

You could rip your hair out trying to craft the perfect argument for you point but if it doesn't appeal to something in the other person you aren't going to get them to your side.

Could this article have gone into more detail about certain topics ? Sure, but would that really have stopped somebody from finding a hole to poke ? I've read too many comment sections to believe that, people will always find something to rip apart an argument no matter how carefully crafted it is. Look at the shit flat earthers come up with. I have a theory this only really comes about due to an intense mistrust of authority which is the real problem we should be addressing if we want to argue with them but I haven't tested it much. Dismissing them kind of ruins the opportunity to sit down, have a beer/coffee and get to understand how they came to hold this opinion.

So the gist of it is, we're missing out by being dismissive. I know I've done it plenty of times, and will probably catch myself doing it in the future no matter how hard I try and avoid it.