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comment by johnnyFive
johnnyFive  ·  2564 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Comey: FBI is investigating Russian election interference, Trump ties

    An additional point, when I try and analyze this with game theory, I can't imagine a scenario where a nation state benefits from being a moral actor.

I mean, this is true, but not really the point. After all, it's just as true in your day-to-day life as well.





OftenBen  ·  2564 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The difference is that the 'penalty' I pay for being a (Mostly) moral actor is lower than that paid by a nation state that does the same.

johnnyFive  ·  2564 days ago  ·  link  ·  

But there will always be a difference in penalties from one actor to another. If you only hold a principle when it doesn't cost you anything, you can't call it your principle.

At the very least, I wish we could stop pretending that we as a country have some kind of moral high ground when that is so clearly not the case.

OftenBen  ·  2564 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Agreed on all counts.

I'm trying to say that assigning morality to the actions of geopolitical actors is stupid. Self-interest is the highest virtue possible at that level, to the point of mutually assured destruction.

I don't see a way out and if someone does please share with the group. Maybe

    we could stop pretending that we as a country have some kind of moral high ground when that is so clearly not the case.

Would be a place to start, but I can't see how that would progress into something that changes behavior on a scale that matters to issues relating to foreign interference in democratic processes.

johnnyFive  ·  2564 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The answer to your last statement is right there--we stop saying that it's "stupid" to apply virtue to large-scale decisions.

OftenBen  ·  2564 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Ok, replace 'stupid' with 'completely ineffectual' and what changes?

I'm sorry to sound snarky about this, but it seems to be unsolvable.

We're American. We're embarrassed by the actions of our political system/politicians.

TFG is Russian, he's embarrassed by the actions of his political system/politicians.

Now what? Go 'Our politicians are slightly less corrupt than yours because they aren't literally murdering rivals in the streets?' Sure, we can say that a lot, but then what? What value is drawn by comparing them? What value is there in saying, in isolation 'Our politicians are completely lacking in virtue.'