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comment by d_e_solomon
d_e_solomon  ·  4546 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Google's tax evasion.
This is a fairly common scheme for companies with significant intellectual property. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement - suggests that Microsoft, Oracle, Eli Whitney, and others all use this approach.

Nobody really wants to pay more tax than required and it seems like google did check with the IRS for a decision prior to setting up the arrangement (usually these types of strategies are expensive to setup so paying the IRS for a ruling ahead of time is a good strategy). It reads like they pushed the limits though of the strategy and so got the IRS attention. I don't really fault them much - IRS letter rulings aren't cheap - and it's easy - much easier than most people think - to go a foul of tax rules.

Much worse in my books are companies or individuals that have offshore entities that are used to hide income. So if I setup an offshore entity and shift my investments there - any income earned is still taxable in the US - but I simply do not report the income and if no tax reporting treaty is in place, then I have successfully dodged the IRS. This is clearly illegal. These sorts of shelters are used for hiding assets from angry ex-spouses and so forth as well which is also very questionable.





mk  ·  4546 days ago  ·  link  ·  
It might be a common scheme, but it is still playing a game that doesn't reflect reality, but enables Google to evade taxation. Google didn't develop the technology in Ireland, and the subsidiary only exists to help Google evade taxation.

I might be old fashion or a socialist or communist or something, but I believe a company shouldn't work to dodge the taxes of the country it is founded in. If Google does not like the tax policy, they can lobby against it. Entertaining this Irish strategy is not admirable, and it hurts US citizens. Google would not exist but for an infrastructure built with US tax dollars.

This behavior might be legal. It might be strategic. But it is unethical and driven by greed.

d_e_solomon  ·  4546 days ago  ·  link  ·  
In my viewpoint, the problem is that the corporate tax system doesn't line up with the financial reporting rules. So a company's net profit that they report to the street has no little bearing on the amount of tax they pay. This originates in that corporate tax grew out of personal tax rules, that most companies are private, and that every politician wants to encourage some random-ass behavior - either increasing gas production, increasing investment, random tax treaties as seen here etc. So the problem becomes that the taxation has become incredibly arbitrary. For instance, at the company I work at, an HVAC unit that is partially in the wall gets depreciated (which impacts total net income) depending on the portion in the wall versus out of the wall. This arbitrariness tends to encourage companies to try and avoid as much tax as possible via any legal (and sometimes illegal) means.

Honestly, when I was a young-in, tax avoidance (not evasion!) was heavily emphasized in my corporate tax classes - that makes sense as many would go to practice tax at a big accounting firm. Many of the big firms specialize in tax planning and avoidance which is why big companies hire them.

If I were design a corporate tax structure (and be the excellent benevolent dictator that I would be), there are a few ground rules: (1) The tax base should correspond to global, financial based accounting income (2) Income should have the same taxablity regardless of corporate vehicle - profits in a llc should taxed the same as those of a c-corp (3) Tax rates should be progressive with very small businesses paying very low tax rates to spur mom&pop type businesses as well as entrepreneurial activity (4) Simple incentives for hiring additional people, R&D activity, and investing in equipment (5) A partial credit for foreign taxes paid (to try to keep double taxation reigned in)

I've been thinking about this topic quite a bit. In Mexico, the law is that companies must pay out a certain portion of their profits to the employees. So the way that many of the larger companies avoid paying out this fee is that they form two umbrella corporations. The first corporation is the operating company that sells product and does all of the real work. The second is a kind of service company that hires almost all of the employees and essentially rents them to the operating company at a minimal margin. Since the most of the employees work for the services company, they are only entitled to a portion of the profits of the service company which has very little profit. Thus the law is circumvented. See pages 16 and 17 here http://www.lcilaw.com/QuickGuideMexico.pdf It's frustrating to me that the law is dodged in this fashion given the powerful impact that the law could have and was intended to have for employees in Mexico.

(This is much longer than I intended to go on - tax and government regulation are areas that I'm rather passionate about)

notseamus  ·  4546 days ago  ·  link  ·  
It might be a common scheme, but it is still playing a game that doesn't reflect reality, but enables Google to evade taxation. Google didn't develop the technology in Ireland, and the subsidiary only exists to help Google evade taxation.

That's not so true of Google as it is of other brass plate companies. Apple and Google operate offices here, but there are lots of companies that have one or two staff on the rolls and just funnel the money through Ireland without doing anything.

mk  ·  4546 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Maybe it's a bit more comforting to know they make a real effort to keep up the illusion, but if it weren't for the tax evasion benefit, I doubt there would be much of a presence there, if any.
notseamus  ·  4545 days ago  ·  link  ·  
They do need a European base (Apple's Europe service centre and call centres are in Cork), but would they choose Ireland if not for the tax? Maybe not (although English speaking is a benefit).

Unfortunately it's not going away soon as it's the only thing keeping Ireland afloat right now and the only way the economy is going to grow and the only way IMF money will get paid back, so there's no will to change the status quo.

mk  ·  4545 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Unfortunately it's not going away soon as it's the only thing keeping Ireland afloat right now and the only way the economy is going to grow and the only way IMF money will get paid back, so there's no will to change the status quo.

I hear you. But, that status quo might be getting an update...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/11/08/...

IMHO it seems very likely that the IMF's needs will far outpace it's ability to get paid.

notseamus  ·  4545 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Yeah, I think Ireland's convinced everyone that they're not Greece, now Italy is wading in…

* The country is planning an additional 12.4 billion euros ($17.1 billion) of austerity measures over the next four years*

Or why I won't be working in Ireland…

mk  ·  4545 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I just don't get it. What is all this austerity for? Is the Euro really worth it? I mean, is it really to Ireland, or Greece's benefit to hang in there and take one for the team? This could mean a decade of stagnation or more.
notseamus  ·  4545 days ago  ·  link  ·  
The problem is pretty complex and really was exacerbated because of the last government guaranteeing private debts held by the banks. The consensus is that this was a terrible idea and that they could have ringfenced people's deposits and dealt with it differently, but it was a EU led decision (Germany and France have large exposure to Irish debt). The same government for years encouraged a massive housing bubble (a house in Dublin went for €56million and was recently auctioned at €13 or so million, one site went for €400 million and is now valued at €30 million or something like that) and did nothing for a rainy day with all the new money they had. They pretty much denied that a rainy day would ever come. And they were pretty ineffectual with dealing with anything that cropped up in the lead up to the burst of the bubble.

Is the Euro that beneficial? Maybe not, but the EU is for Ireland, and staying in the EU is worth it in the eyes of a lot of people. Ireland was (and in a lot ways still is) a bit of a backwater and it was EU membership that really bucked that trend. And I don't think anyone sees us getting out of this on our own either, so we're doing what we're told.

We do make our best art in times like these, so there is that…

Ireland's in a weird place right now, the economy grew last quarter ahead of expectations but so did unemployment. What'll happen next, who knows?

mk  ·  4545 days ago  ·  link  ·  
We do make our best art in times like these, so there is that…

:) I saw Martin McDonagh's play The Cripple of Inishmaan not too long ago here in Ann Arbor, (near Detroit, Michigan), and it was fantastic. A week ago I saw Beckett's Watt and Endgame at the same theater, back to back. Watt was pretty good, but I couldn't take Endgame.

Being from Detroit, I can empathize with the feeling that a bit of hard times makes for great art. The city is pretty awful to live in, but it's very creative.

Ireland's in a weird place right now, the economy grew last quarter ahead of expectations but so did unemployment. What'll happen next, who knows?

That seems to be a theme. The US economy seems like some guy that just stood up after getting hit in the head. It looks like he might be ok, then he wobbles, then he steadies himself, then he wobbles again...