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comment by user-inactivated
user-inactivated  ·  4287 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: A Child Left Behind

I think what the standards are doing is not telling a teacher how you teach but what. And then the testing is telling you how well. Comparing it to the Enlightenment may not be the greatest idea because the literacy rate then varied greatly from male to females and was at best 70 percent for males. And this would have been based mostly on the judgment of the educators as to who should be taught what.





NotPhil  ·  4287 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think the testing is only telling you how well you've trained students to take tests.

This is what I think of our schooling. This is why I think testing is counterproductive. And this is how I think we should educate.

user-inactivated  ·  4287 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I kind of just don't buy that teaching kids math, science, writing and reading is the worst thing we can be doing to them. I believe there are more effective ways to do it than we currently do, but we'd have to change a lot more than the curriculum to change that.

NotPhil  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I kind of just don't buy that teaching kids math, science, writing and reading is the worst thing we can be doing to them.

I don't know what you're referring to. Did someone say that?

user-inactivated  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That's what the Common Core standards are; standards for teaching reading, writing, science, and math. And testing to see whether they've been achieved or not is an assessment tool for the administrators of the school system to see who is doing well so they can figure out how and train others to do the same.

NotPhil  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm curious. Why do you think tests show how well a subject is being taught?

In my experience, tests distract everyone from the subject matter. Both students and teachers are more interested in test scores than they are in the subject matter. They memorize factoids and procedures in order to take a test, then they forget it all so they can get on with the memorization for the next test.

The only people who can learn anything (except for how to take a test) in that kind of environment are the ones who test so well that they don't have to worry about the tests. They have the time to pay attention to the subject matter (often on their own because the class time is so frequently being used for test prep).

I've known many students who had only the vaguest idea what a course had, ostensibly, been about by the next semester. They were certain that schooling was about test-taking, and that the different subjects were only used to keep the tests from all being the same. No joke.

user-inactivated  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think that testing shows how well a student is being taught because it gives the best avenue for a student to demonstrate knowledge. Teachers have thought this for a very long time, and it is the reason that you are tested and/or asked to demonstrate knowledge at the end, and during near every course you will ever be in.

Testing can take many shapes, so even in an art class you can be assessed to see how well you understand and are able to demonstrate a certain concept (like cubism or interpretation). Not every test has to be fill in the bubble, and testing itself can be a learning experience.

NotPhil  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    it gives the best avenue for a student to demonstrate knowledge.

I can't remember ever taking a test like that. These ones I've taken involve identifying specific answers to particular questions and following particular procedures for producing specific answers. I wasn't demonstrating my knowledge of anything except my test-taking skills.

Now, I have been told that there was a time when teachers discussed the subject matter with students during class, and then altered their methods and subjects to accommodate what the students appeared to understand, and what they seemed to need to understand. I've rarely seen anything like this myself, but this sounds like a far more sensible system of assessment and adjustment than testing to me.

I've even been told that, at one time, principals, department heads, and deans used to sit in on classes to see what was going on and evaluate the quality of the instruction. Again, I've rarely seen this happen, but it sounds like a fairly clever way for administrators to make assessments of and adjustments to the teaching in a school.

    Teachers have thought this for a very long time,

The kind of testing we're talking about is very recent.

    testing itself can be a learning experience.

Of course it can. It can help people learn how to take tests.

    I'm in education

If it's not an intrusion, could you tell me what you do in education?

user-inactivated  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The kind of assessment you are talking about is called Formative Assessment. It is what good teachers do every day. Homework, quizzes, and tests can all be forms of formative assessment. Writing an essay on thematic elements of a novel can be an assessment as well, and depending on the level of the student (7th grade English vs. Senior level Literary Analysis) can be either a formative or summative assessment.

Literally every month I have ever taught, my principal has been in the room at least once to evaluate my development, lesson plan, delivery, and adjustments.

I'm a high school math teacher. I have a MA in Teaching and I have been in charge of department level curriculum development based on standards like Common Core.

NotPhil  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The kind of assessment you are talking about is ... what good teachers do every day. ... Literally every month I have ever taught, my principal has been in the room at least once

It sounds like you're in a pretty good school district. Why would you want to deal with the distraction of standardized testing? Is it because of the funding system?

    I have been in charge of department level curriculum development based on standards like Common Core.

Be honest, haven't there been times when you've thought that your school could do better for its students without those standards dictating what you should test for?

user-inactivated  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We have to consider that the people writing the standards have a lot of experience in deciding what in Math/English etc. should be taught and considered relevant within the subject. They are usually Ph. D level educators and have a lot of experience working with kids and school boards.

In developing these standards they consider input from community and industry leaders to gain outside opinion on what stake holders might find lacking in the current generation of students. i.e. "Why don't graduates know statistics/programming/technical writing?" Or whatever they might see lacking.

And most of the time, I agree with what they're saying. Common Core is a dramatic improvement in many ways over the previous standards and it gives realistic (but previously unheard of) goals for each grade in the major subjects.

We don't find standardized testing to be an enormous distraction. It is not an obstacle but a tool where we can take a step back and assess how well the students did compared to how they entered the classroom (last year's test). Then we can figure out why and try to improve. And even though it is unfortunately being used to guarantee funding under the abortion that is NCLB, and do stupid things like dictate merit-based pay increases, these are symptoms of the problem (legislators and administrators do not understand the processes that lead to consistent education and learning and so we waste our time spinning our wheels with trying new things and old things and just seeing what works or more often doesn't) and we are better off at least making informed decisions with data than not.