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comment by mk
mk  ·  4858 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The Founders: Religion, Virtue, and Morality and the Success of the American Nation?
Some of these quotes make no reference to religion. For example, Ben Franklin's: "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

I think you can interpret that many ways. But regardless, does it really matter what fraction of these men were deists? What do we take from it?

I'm a non-religious person, and I much appreciate that I am not discriminated against for it in the US. As a student of history, I've found countless examples of Christians killing people. I have encountered plenty of nice Christians, but I've also encountered some very unfriendly ones: racist ones, ones that sabatoge others at work, etc. I haven't found that being a Christian means you are a good person. Yes, Christianity mostly teaches you to be one, but I've found that I act more Christ-like than some people that go to church on Sunday.

Morality doesn't require faith, and it surely doesn't require a specific type of faith. We have a system that recognizes this, and I for one am glad for that. Of course everyone of faith is going to think they are coming from the right direction, but that is fundamental property of faith itself.

I have no problems with people practicing their faith, or constructing a world-view based on it that's different from my own. But, I become very uncomfortable when a specific faith wants to guide the interactions of those that don't practice it, especially through government. Deists or not, the founders were wise to the dangers that religion can pose upon a pluralistic democracy and tried to keep church and state seperate for it.





hootsbox  ·  4850 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Additionally, this statement is by Benjamin Franklin (albeit later in life) and makes specific references to the Biblical record, and the whole precept of the statement is Biblical in nature. I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

Another hint might be from the following statement"

Benjamin Franklin signed Pennsylvania's 1776 Constitution, which stated in Frame of Government, Chapter 2, Section 10: "Each member of the legislature, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration: 'I do believe in one God, the Creator and Governour of the Universe, the Rewarder of the good and Punisher of the wicked, and I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration.'"

hootsbox  ·  4851 days ago  ·  link  ·  
While I have met people who have good ethics and morals, they are basically rooted in religious tenants; people did not just invent them as good behavior patterns. For instance, it is generally a good moral and ethical trait for a married man to be faithful to his wife; it is more fruitful and more healthy than the results or fruit of adultery. It is rooted in Judeo/Christian morals and ethics, but can be applied universally for sure. The same would hold true for killing your fellow man (Thou shalt not kill) or stealing someone's property (Thou shalt not steal). All these have their main roots in religion. You are correct, they went to great lengths to practice "Chrisitian tolerance" of other religions, and they sought to avoid the model of a government sponsored and imposed particular religion (or in their case, a denomination) i.e. The Anglican Church of England. However, most of the Founders were devout practicing Christians, and there is an overwhelming plethora of documentation on this. Very few were actually Diests, and some were even atheists.
mk  ·  4850 days ago  ·  link  ·  
My wife is from China. She has no religion in her upbringing, or that of her parents. She is one of the most kindhearted and considerate people I know. I agree that morality can be rooted in religion, but I know it doesn't need to be. Ethics and morals need not be invented. It is rewarding to live a compassionate life. If you do good, you are surrounded in good. We are all in this boat together. We can make it better, or we can make it worse. IMHO, that can come to any thoughtful and empathetic person.
hootsbox  ·  4849 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Oh, absolutely; we should all strive to uphold the tenants of kindness, compassion (not misguided compassion or unintended consequences of good intentions), charity, forgiveness, longsuffering - you know the stuff listed in 1 Corinthians 13 and the definition of love (which I don't believe anyone would take exception to albeit "religious (in the broad sense of the term) or not. I'm so glad to hear it is so with you.
mk  ·  4847 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Agreed. Cheers.