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comment by Lintel
Lintel  ·  3891 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Soapbox Sundays: Expound on an Idea/Philosophy of Yours

I'm game, let's give it a shot.

The fallacy of the belief in government: any government. Before I start I want you to think about the fact that there is no such thing as legitimate government, or even that there is such a thing as Government.

Right now, we're as a species in big problems, mainly because we obey rules made up by others in their self-interest instead of serving the public good. The crisis of '08 which still hasn't ended and has crippled a generation turned out to be a text-book example of cronyism and self-serving legalized theft.

Many people wail and complain and try to adress the problems they face with unjust laws, stifling rules and the lack of justice, without realizing one essential fact.

There is no government. Government has no body, no reality except for a few lines written down on a piece of paper saying there's a government. There never was. It's an idea whose time has come to be mocked. The idea that ANYONE has the right to order someone else to do something by threatening them with force ( 'Obey the law or we'll throw you in jail and steal all your money') is an abhorrence to anything which even slightly resembles something humane.

In other words, the belief there's something as someone who has the right to rule you and order you to do things which go against your own free will is lunacy. And we're collectively hallucinating.

Think about this.

From the day you're born you're given a serial number (your social security number) which grants you certain civil rights. These civil rights are codified (i.e. written down) natural rights (i.e. rights you have, which are inherent and which can NEVER be taken away from you). However, civil rights CAN be changed as well as taken away. If they have been given to you by a 'higher power', then they can be taken away by the same entity which gave them to you.

These civil rights and this social contract make you subject to certain obligations, when you're no more than a few days old. These rules control you, tell you what you can and cannot do (even if you're not hurting anyone but yourself; or not even hurt yourself!). You are not allowed to decide for yourself, but should obey to Government, the people who claim they're Government and the rules written on a piece of paper by the same people who now tell you you should obey because it's the Law. Even if this goes against every moral fibre in your body.

You are now property of the State. Congratulations.

If the idea of Governance is based on the idea of the Social Contract, this contract has been made iwith someone who didn't comprehend it due to the fact s/he was a baby at the time and was not aware of all the rules, obligations, regulations and ever-dwindling rights and it is therefore null and void.

If Governance is 'by consent' then being no longer prepared to participate in said State dissolves the idea of Government as well.

In short: the idea there is really something as 'Government' is a fallacy, being either a coercion which is never legitimate; or it is a fiction which works only if you consent to it. Either way, Government as an reality does not exist and the sooner we realize this as a species, the sooner we can throw off the shackles which keep us going straight off the cliff.





teamramonycajal  ·  3891 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Got any better ideas that take stock of the fact that humanity has never been entirely composed of adequately rational human beings (c.f. wars, massacres, organized crime, mental illness )?

And if you SERIOUSLY think children should have EXACTLY the same rights as adults (no, I'm not talking about basic human rights; I'm talking about things you earn at the age of majority), I don't know what to tell you.

Lintel  ·  3891 days ago  ·  link  ·  

There are many disfunctional, mentally-ill people. However, the majority of deaths, massacres, wars and heinous crimes have been perpetrated by people while following orders given to them by someone who called themselves 'Government'. It might be the soldiers who die but it's the cowards in positions of power who give the order. If everyone realized that just because there's something or someone calling themselves 'Government' which orders you to go out and kill people it doens't mean you actually have to do that, how many wars, atrocities, massacres etc do you think we will see? Not a lot, I think.

That being said, you ALWAYS bear a personal responsability for your actions which harm another human being (and perhaps even as far as every other living thing). Responsability means you cannot hide behind the false excuse of 'just following orders'. It's the one who pulls the trigger, dumps the toxic waste in the river or pulls the wings off of flies. NOT the one who ordered you to do that. You have a moral responsability to think for yourself. And as soon as you realize you cannot hide behind leaders, you realize the idea of Government of and in itself is idiotic.

Second part: huh? Where did I say that children should have exactly the same rights as adults? I was talking about the legal obligations imposed upon a baby, at the same time it 'receives' civil rights. Civil rights are a legal fiction; which come from the idea of a Social Contract between an individual and the State. And since a new-born cannot make a balanced judgement, any contract imposing obligations upon an individual is null and void.

I'm interested what rights you had in mind when you reacted, because I don't know what you're hinting at.

edit: spelling

teamramonycajal  ·  3891 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Who punishes the dysfunctional and how in a non-governmental system? What is a government other than an organization with origins in an old agreement among a people, handed down through the years to new electees, though the current parties were not party to the original agreement (but how do you pass it on and change it with each generation? Oh, that's right, elections)?

Also, remember, government is not a mean-looking The Man or The Woman in a suit. It's made up of people. Some of whom are idiots. I have been part of The Government as an intern at the Smithsonian (which is considered part of the government). So has my father, in a different job in a different part of the government. My mother still is, in yet another different job in yet another different part of the government. Which part of the government do you blame? Congress? The Supreme Court ? The executive branch? Which part of the executive branch?

Talking about 'Government' as a monolith will get any discussion nowhere.

Lintel  ·  3891 days ago  ·  link  ·  

First of all, you haven't answered my previous question about what rights you had in mind when you reacted the first time.

Second: a government is indeed an organisation with origins in an old agreement, handed down through the years. And that is exactly the problem. You are born into a system of rules and obligations, along with rights, but you had absolutely no say in them. You are bound by rules imposed upon you without your consent. Indeed, government is a collection of people, some of which are idiots. And believing it's morally right to have idiots writing lines on a piece of paper and saying 'now you have to obey what we've just written down on this piece of paper, or else we'll throw you in a cage' is exactly the problem I have with Government. I'm not sorry, because government IS a monolith. Ever tried to fix things through the judicial or legislative system? Yeah, in the past it might have worked a bit but only because people realized at a certain dim level that an imposed rule was not helping them and they demanded to have it changed. Which is still very much like the slave asking his master to whip him a little less often.

No one has the right to imprison another human being; no one has the right to rob, steal or kill. So why is it that these things change when it's government who's doing these exact same things all of a sudden? That's the point I'm trying to make: just because someone says 'this rule HAS to be obeyed' and the fact that everyone believes this outright lie doesn't make it so.

If I wrote down on a piece of paper 'you have to wear a yellow paper hat every other day, otherwise you'll be locked up for a year' you'd think I'd be insane, and rightly so. So why do we magically believe in the sanity of rules when government makes them? Because we've 'agreed' to be ruled? I haven't. Show me where it says any of us have agreed to be ruled (if, of course, you WANT to be ruled, I have nothing to say. Your life, your choice.) But that doesn't change the fact that the whole idea of government, in which a small group of people can boss other people around and call it a good thing is a logical fallacy.

Thirdly: the punishing of the dysfunctional. This is, indeed, a tricky one. First off: ask the question why are people dysfunctional? Is it something they've picked up from birth? An accident? Drugs? And if so, what were the cause which led them to a certain act of dysfunctionality? As a family/neighborhood/town you CAN get together and decide how you can deal with dysfunctional individuals. There's mediators galore but there's no one from stopping you to ask an impartial third person to review a certain case. You can be governed, no problem. But it should be consentual which means you enter such a system of rules by your own free will and you must be able to leave again if the rules are changed on an almost daily basis (as is the case nowadays). I think the idea of banishment (temporarily or permanent) has much more merits than imprisonment.

Btw, if elections would solve anything, it would either be outlawed or things would have changed for the better already. Since they haven't, I can confidently state that looking for the solution coming from other people isn't going to work. Which takes us right back at the main problem: believing someone else has the right to rule you. You are not a slave who needs the master's permission to do something YOU know to be right. If what you do harms no one or demolishes the natural resources around you, who has the right to tell you you can't do them? There's examples of working non-governmental societies all throughout the world as well as throughout history. You break the one rule (which is when you've harmed someone) and you will have to take responsability for your actions. Your neighbours have the obligation to call you out if you're messing things up. because they have a responsability too: not to let someone mess up things in such a way that it harm others.

As far as your last remark: I don't really blame a specific part of government, I'm looking people who think there should BE such a thing as government in the first place.