a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment
kleinbl00  ·  3166 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Your job will never love you.

I appreciate the apology. Happy to discuss this like respectful adults.

I agree with you - "bootstrapping" is a terrible way to approach societal change. When we're discussing policy it's unhelpful to suggest that people in dire straits because they lack a work ethic. However, we're not discussing policy here - we're discussing an individual with an individual problem. That this problem is common across a broad demographic spectrum is relevant to a different discussion. When you're talking to one person, "do something before you have to" is more pragmatic advice than "foment revolution." And when talking to another person, calling that advice "victim blaming" is going to open no one's mind.

You say "it ignores the institutionalized restrictions imposed upon the actual options available to the receiver." What you mean is "it's too hard." Talk about "just world hypothesis" - you can either wait for it to get easier or you can accept the conditions on the ground and adapt to the best of your abilities. Regardless of what happens next, at least you tried. At least you took initiative. At least you attempted to make a change. Let's talk about emotional well being - is "sack up" really worse than "accept your fate?"

I gave advice based on my personal experience. Nowhere did I attempt to argue that my experience was universal, nowhere did I make any sweeping statement about national or global demographics. I gave an individual answer to an individual question. You want to have an argument about policy, I want to give advice... and despite the fact that we agree about the issues, we're debating now.

It's inappropriate (and inflammatory) to disregard my experience because it was my experience. It's also rhetorically incorrect. Anecdotal evidence is "Homeopathic remedies work; my buddy Joe tried Bach Flower Essences and they calmed him down." Testimony is "Bach Flower Essences work for me." You can impugn anecdotal evidence - there's no metrics, there's no repeatability, there's questionable provenance. You can't impugn testimony. All you can do is call the testifier a liar. Which you did. Did you mean to?

It sounds like you didn't mean to. It sounds like you wanted to have a discussion about the impact of insensitive philosophy on sensitive psyches in a patriarchal economic system. Unfortunately, you accused me of victim blaming, told me to STFU and threw Wikipedia links at me. More than that, you ignored the arguments I was making to make the arguments you want to have: nowhere did I say I think the world is a "just place." To the contrary. My argument, as stated all over this thread, is that the world is deeply injust and that the article expects justice.

We agree about broad strokes. I'm willing to bet that we even agree that it's better to do something than to accept your fate. So here's the question: What would you add here? Because honestly, I think you have some useful points to make, and you'll be a lot more successful if you don't attempt to dismantle me in the process.