I apologise if you feel offended. My last intention is to insult anyone. As I said I was vegetarian for 6 years. I was happy with the compromise of not killing animals and I thought I would be vegetarian for life. Until I understood the animal suffering that still exists in the production of dairy and egg products. The word production itself when associated with sentient beings should already ring alarm bells but I'll explain. Just to give you a couple of examples. Egg laying chicks, when they are born, if male they are ground into dog food straight away. If female, they have their beaks cut so they won't peck each other. They are placed in tiny cages about the size of their bodies to lay eggs until they stop "producing". At which point they become worthless from a financial point of view and are killed for meat. Milk cows are forcibly impregnated so they will have a calf. If the calf is male, it gets sold for veal meat. If female it gets placed in a cubicle where she gets fed grains and pumped with milk producing hormones. The process repeats while the cow is able to "produce" milk. At which point it has the same end of life faith as the egg layer. Sure if you're wealthy enough you can opt for the organic cheese and milk, which is slightly better from an animal welfare point of view. Although, many farmers do their organic bit because of the extra premium of organic products and not necessarily because they care any more for their animals than their non-organic counterparts. I'm not putting an obligation on anyone. If you are you ok with the subjugation and premature killing of another sentient being for the pleasure of your taste buds, that's your choice. I chose not to do it since I can. I have had several discussions here, some with other vegetarians, trying to explain the difference between animal welfare and an animal's right to a free life. They are very distinct values. Once people were ok with slavery and those who pointed out the madness were not welcome for a long time. Animal rights is an extension of human rights and the social movement of our times.
I am not a vegetarian or a vegan, and your continued implications that eating meat or any other animal products is some sort of grand moral failing is not appreciated. I also do not appreciate the condescension in the sentence "If you are you ok with the subjugation and premature killing of another sentient being for the pleasure of your taste buds, that's your choice." Ooo, how cruel. Pure nasty me for subjugating and killing those creatures for my own terrible taste buds. "I'm not putting an obligation on anyone" Bullshit. Get off your high horse. You put an obligation on others with every sentence you write. Do you think I needed the standard spiel about factory farming? I'm not going to respond as of yet to the comparison with slavery. I'm sure you'll make your views clear in your response.
If you're not vegetarian, why did you take offence to my vegetarian comment? Were you trying to defend a group which you do not belong to, like vegans defend on a daily basis a massive group of beings which have no voice? I'm not on a high horse. You would have to have some feeling of inferiority to think that. I'm pointing out the reality and you feel offended because you happen to be playing a part of it. You became defensive and the best that you can come up with is a personal attack. Which of my arguments about animal rights did you have an issue with? If there is a fallacy in my logic please point it out. It's a lot easier to attack the messenger than to come up with a logical reason for eating animal products. Why can we not compare animal abuse for human needs (which can be met by other means) with slavery? I said that animal rights is an extension of human rights, not the same thing but an extension. If a pig feels pain like a human feels pain, why should we not wish a cruelty free life for both? And this is simply from an ethical point of view, we're not even mentioning environment, resources and health impact of producing and consuming animal products.
I took offense because it was a snooty, judging comment on other people's eating habits. Love the false equivalency. Love how you imply I am inferior to you. The "best" I can come up with. Lovely. Yes, I have a problem with comparing the harvesting of animal products from animals to human suffering. They are not the same. More eloquent people than me have already expressed their feelings on this subject to you. Comparing animal abuse with slavery is something that shows your apparent lack of understanding of the cruelty inflicted on the enslaved. I know nothing about logical fallacies. I know when I'm being assaulted from the moral equivalent of the Himalayas.
I'm not going to repeat myself nor will I take notice of personal attacks. You have a problem with comparing "harvesting of animal products" to human suffering, yet you can't explain why. That's called cognitive dissonance coupled with speciesism. People get touchy about comparing animals with humans as if humans are not animals. Do you not agree that suffering is the same regardless of species? I'm not saying that a human salve is the same as a chicken slave, I'm saying that both have the capacity to feel pain and cruelty and both strive for a free life and both deserve it. My final thought is this; If thanks to science in today's modern western society, we know it is possible to live healthy, comfortable lifestyles where no animals are harmed, why should we still chose to do so?
Can't I explain why? On one side, you have animals processed and harvested for food. The problem of needless cruelty in this process exists. On the other side, you have...human suffering. Poverty, war, rape, crime, etc. I believe that the suffering of humans is of an order of magnitude more important than any suffering an animal could go through. I do not agree that each pain is the same. Both have the capacity to feel pain. I doubt an animal knows what cruelty is, only that it is being hurt. An animal does not strive for a free life any more than a tree wants to be in the sun. It would benefit it, but it does not dream of freedom. That sounds like mumbo-jumbo, but it's the only way I can think to put it. I do have a problem with needless pain in the harvesting process, but I think that food production is a need. There is no such reason for the suffering of humans. If I think humans and animals are different, than apparently I am a "speciesist." It is certainly possible to live without consuming animal products, but why bother?
I'm obviously wasting my time. I'm sorry for wasting yours. Have a nice life....why bother?
Oh, can't explain in return? That's called giving up. "Have a nice life." Glad to see you abandon the hunt as soon as you lose the advantage. Oops, did I trigger you by saying "hunt?" EDIT: What an overly simplistic view of the world. What else could I have expected.
Don't get too worked up about OrganicAnt. They've been a constant, infuriating, stubborn debate partner on this topic for a long time, entering the fray originally by going onto our weekly grubski post and only posting pictures of young animals, as if it would lead to us feeling bad about eating meat, without backing up anything said. If you want to see a full discussion we had on meat and got into rather heated arguments with said poster, refer to this post by TNG so we could all be open. I... went off quite a bit after they decided to equate eating meat to genocide, after an already long rant about the topic at hand.
I believe that the suffering of humans is of an order of magnitude more important than any suffering an animal could go through.
That part really makes me wonder how insensitive to animal suffering people can be. Even if you only consider the physical pain. This is something that most human beings are very afraid of and try to eliminate it from our society almost completely, while leaving billions animals annually to suffer the pains of terrible amounts . Do you really think that animals don't feel the pain or feel it different than we do? In fact we are just another animal. Do you really think that it is alright if a one cow at a 10,000 is skinned alive and concious, just so the costs of meat could be reduced by few cents?
If we are just another animal is more a philosophic kind of question I don't aspire to answer. Still it's easy to see that we are an animal and we have a lot in common with them. And even if you consider human suffering more important than animals', consider the amounts. There are around 60 billions land animals killed every year, that is 10 times more there are people living. Not every human on Earth is suffering dramatic conditions, while more than 90% of those animals do.
Do you mean to imply that one human suffering will always be worth than any number of animal suffering? That would make animal suffering worthless forever.