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comment by user-inactivated
user-inactivated  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The Truth About Women in Combat - The Daily Beast

From the Panetta article:

    For instance, the defense official said, it's likely the Army will establish a set of physical requirements for infantry soldiers. The candidate, man or woman, will have to lift a certain amount of weight in order to qualify. The standards will be gender neutral.

Fine. Gender-neutral, gender-blind changes -- these cannot hurt the military if they are followed.

But when affirmative action was introduced, if the supporters had been asked, "Will this at all lower the intelligence level of our higher education system by even once substituting someone less intelligent on the basis of his or her race?" -- what would they have said?

Apparently I'm not asking the right questions. Here's one: will this at all lower the effectiveness of our military by even once substituting someone less combat effective on the basis of gender? I hope not, and from what you've written I guess you believe it won't.





kleinbl00  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

PROTIP: The constitution does not apply to the armed forces.

There is no habeas corpus. There is no 1st Amendment. There are none of the niceties we take for granted. So when the AEC tells you it's perfectly safe to charge into a nuclear blast, even when you prove in a court of law they were lying to you they get to say "too bad, so sad, shouldn't have joined the Army."

Affirmative action has nothing to do with it - Affirmative Action is all about recognizing that some people face more hardship than others (theoretically). Al Franken's analogy is the best I've found for the theoretical basis for AA:

    Consider two baseball players who tie in a race to first base. However, one runs with perfect form while the other runs awkwardly. Which do you choose? You choose the one who runs awkwardly because when you teach him good form, he’ll run faster than the other player. Black Americans are nothing but awkwardly running baseball players, so affirmative action is justified.

"Women in the military" isn't about "women need a leg up in order to compete with men for military jobs" It's about "women need to not be dismissed by edict." To use the baseball analogy, it's allowing both people to run even though one of them is a girl.

user-inactivated  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

All right. We're worried about two different things here. To twist your analogy, I'm worried that when the running woman gets to first base behind the running man, she'll get chosen anyway. Being naturally cynical, I'm absolutely sure this will happen at some point, and when it does, it will decrease the effectiveness of our military by some iota.

I agree that women should get the chance to run -- everyone should (although I find it bizarre that what I'm actually saying is "everyone should get a chance to be killed on foreign soil").

kleinbl00  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I agree that women should get the chance to run -- everyone should (although I find it bizarre that what I'm actually saying is "everyone should get a chance to be killed on foreign soil").

Nothing bizarre about it - you're recognizing that women are entitled to full citizenship. And that's what we're talking about here: the recognition that there is nothing inherently inferior about women. Skills- and strength-based occupations should (and are) remaining skills- and strength-based occupations, but there is no longer an arbitrary reason why half of all Americans cannot try out for those occupations.

You see this in terms of affirmative action - which is all about providing opportunities for underserved minorities in order to equalize inequality across socioeconomic strata. This is very much not that. This is about desegregation, pure and simple - this is the National Guard in Alabama so that George Wallace doesn't turn the fire hose on those kids trying to go to high school. Are they guaranteed graduation? Fuck no.

But they sure should be guaranteed the opportunity to fail.

user-inactivated  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

All fair. I do think that we sometimes forget that there are things inherently different about women and men, and that sometimes remembering that difference gets twisted into sexism. But perhaps that's a separate discussion.

I always enjoy discussing things with you; thanks for the perspective.

kleinbl00  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Likewise. I even forgive you for badging a David Frum column.

user-inactivated  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I cordially refuse your forgiveness. Look at the discussion it inspired - is that not the point?

kleinbl00  ·  4286 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Psssh.