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comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  3800 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Is Lying Bad?

    lying makes their lives easier,

Suppose my mother-in-law is a terrible knitter. But suppose she loves knitting. She loves to knit me sweaters I hate every year.

Suppose I've mentioned that it's too warm in LA for a sweater every year since I've moved here. Suppose I've also mentioned that I'm rarely out in any occasions where a sweater makes sense. Yet suppose the sweaters keep coming.

Now suppose I'm a terrible liar, and that I hate having to tell people things that are untrue. I can do one of two things:

1) Tell my mother in law that I love this year's sweater.

2) Tell my mother in law that I don't like this year's sweater.

Condition (1), for me, involves lying. I don't enjoy lying. It involves me wearing a sweater I don't like. Condition (2), for me, involves telling the truth. I enjoy telling the truth. It also frees me from this and all future sweaters.

Condition (1), for my mother in law, involves the joy of giving. It involves recognition for her labor. It validates our relationship. Condition (2), for my mother-in-law, negates the joy of giving. It invalidates her efforts. It further calls into question all the effort she has put into her knitting for me up to this point and requires her to do something else for me in the future that she will not enjoy as much.

I'm going to pick (1) every time because I'm willing to sacrifice my comfort and "moral code" in order to make my mother-in-law happy. It's all cost to me and all benefit to her, and I don't even have to think about it. "Not lying" in this instance makes my life so much easier, but I'm not going to do it.

Most people wouldn't.





WorLord  ·  3800 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Another way to view this:

You do not enjoy feeling guilty, and because you believe the truth would hurt your mother in law's feelings, you've decided that avoiding this pain is worth more than giving her that truth -- even though that truth might actually, in the long run, cause her to improve her knitting skills.

I'm not saying that the above is true, and if it is, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you wouldn't be doing it on a conscious, purposeful level. But it is, certainly, a way to see it.

I suspect both stories are true to some degree.

kleinbl00  ·  3800 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Your statement was "People rationalize it away because lying makes their lives easier."

My counterexample was one in which my lying makes my life demonstrably harder.

You disregard that and instead decide that I "do not enjoy feeling guilty" and further, I lack the self-awareness to make this choice on a "conscious, purposeful level." In doing so, you disregard my statement that "I don't enjoy lying."

I'm in a lose-lose position - By your assertion, I do not enjoy feeling guilty. By my assertion, I do not enjoy lying. To further use your assertion, I probably feel guilty that I'm not "causing her to improve her knitting skills."

No matter how you slice it - my arguments, your arguments, anyone's arguments - I lose. The only question is by how much. From an emotional standpoint, however, my mother-in-law either loses or wins. So I choose "big loss" for me in exchange for "mother-in-law wins."

Lying doesn't make my life easier. It makes it harder. You are, again, wrong.

WorLord  ·  3800 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You disregard that and instead decide that I "do not enjoy feeling guilty" and further, I lack the self-awareness to make this choice on a "conscious, purposeful level."

It's like you have five interpretations of everything I say, and are just determined to pick the one that is the most insulting to you, and then frame it as what I actually said. Why do you enjoy doing this so much?

    From an emotional standpoint, however, my mother-in-law either loses or wins.

That depends on when you choose to end the story.

If you end it in the moments after you tell her how much her sweaters suck, then sure. However:

You don't think it is possible that immediate pain would give way to eventual (but far greater) pleasure, when she no longer is a bad knitter, or has, instead, found something she really is good at? You don't think it's possible that she may eventually, at some point down the road, come to thank you for setting her straight, and bond with you more securely due to your honesty?

If not, then... well, that's interesting, I guess.

    You are, again, wrong.

Yes yes, I know how much you enjoy saying that. Good on you, here's some more internet points. Gotta admit, though, I am surprised you are so ready after such a relatively short cool-down period.