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comment by Saouka
Saouka  ·  3829 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Rape Is Caused by Rapists, Not by Underage Drinking

For it to be zero-sum it requires a shift in responsibility from someone onto someone else. The cases are independent of one another and do not happen simultaneously or co-happen. They are the two very different results of what people studied think.

Case A: The woman drinks more. She is held to be more responsible for being raped than a sober woman would. The man is unaffected in terms of responsibility.

Case B: The man drinks more. He is held to be less responsible for the act than a sober man would. The woman is unaffected in terms of responsibility.

Should it be a zero-sum game, there needs to be a link from the man's total responsibility to the woman's total responsibility. There is not.

Case Z: The woman is drunk. The woman is held to be more responsible, ergo the man is less responsible.

Case Z would be a zero-sum example. The others are not.

Responsibility is pretty damn separate to criminal culpability if only in matters of discreteness - responsibility can be in terms of degree but you are not partially culpable in the eyes of the law, you are guilty or not guilty. We are not merely dancing around synonyms if there is a clear difference in properties like that.

My 'final conjecture' is a complaint of how ridiculous the number game works out to.





WorLord  ·  3828 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Ah, I see. I was confused, and I apologize: I did think cases A and B were the same case, that's my mistake.

Case Z would be what I've been talking about (more like railing against).

That said, I see now why A and B are interesting to you.

If B is as you present it, then I disagree with the groupthink there, as in every other criminal avenue we view inebriated people as responsible for the horrible acts they commit under the influence. In fact, we often ratchet the severity up if one does something horrible in an altered state, and criminalize otherwise legal acts if they attempt to be done drunk (like driving). That should be the case in B, and that it isn't displays a double-standard regarding responsibility and inebriation that I can only describe as "breathtaking".

On the other hand, I find it is common to have less sympathy for inebriated people who hurt themselves or otherwise get themselves into bad situations then would normally be felt if those people were sober. I often view this as reasonable, and share the sentiment, so I can't say that I disagree with A at all. I disagree that it is somehow sexist to point out that she had a hand in her own undoing, or to suggest that the situation may well not have come to pass were she sober.

On your last sentence, I think we've actually come to some sort of agreement, as my entire gripe against zero-sum responsibility is that it reduces things to a numbers game whereas percentages of responsibility don't make any real (or even mathematical) sense otherwise. I mean yeah, you can try to do it, but if you did you'd very realistically have situations wherein the sum total of all blame to go 'round could very well be something like 487%, and that's just a silly and useless way of looking at it.