You know how people who aren't from New York think The Village Voice is awesome but when you really look at it, it's like the New Yorker minus all the stuff that actually matters? The Seattle Weekly is like that. It's pretty much the the Life Magazine to The Stranger's Vanity Fair.

Got it. That makes sense. I didn't know if there was some incident that caused the mockery or just shoddiness.

I absolutely disagree. Punk is, at its core, Dadaism. It is a transitional movement embraced short-term. Punks don't die, they move on, having been changed in some way by their passage through punk. That's why I called it "devil's advocacy" - punk is that first angry reaction against establishment, that first shot in the arm that there's something more and that what you have is corrupt. It's a pendulum and punk is at one extreme - everyone involved will eventually find their new center somewhere between "where they were" and "punk."

I like this. I've never considered this before this conversation. I'm going to have to think about this a bit more.

They got big because of Malcolm McLaren - who ten years later was selling out big:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxs106rp5RQ|

Haha! Oh man, when the "face" winks, just kills me. "Selling out big" is right. I can understand that though.

I think metal is cathartic. I think metal allows people who feel aggressive and testosterone-laden to channel their anger into harmless creative pursuits. Much as people keep trying to blame metal for all sorts of evil, metalheads are just about the chillest mutherfuckers you've ever met.|

Now that you mention it, I have noticed that my friends who are into metal are generally really nice, cool people who like to . . . (and I mean this with absolutely no malice or derision) play make-believe and dress-up.

I haven't read much about Goth culture, though I have spoken to some people who are into it and I was surprised that they all ended up talking about acceptance and support, to one degree or another.

Anyway, thanks for taking time to help expand my view and knowledge of subcultures, I appreciate it!