NO, no, yes, yes, and some other thoughts.
1) I have little pity for your friend who has to live with the consequences of her actions
2) I have little pity for your friend who has to live with the consequences of his actions
3) agreed
4) funny I agree with the headline that dealing with the alcohol problems in this country should have effect on the crime rates in this country - but I think this guy's solutions are too "systems" and government based. Alcohol abuse is a complicated issue with more personal/social/familial facets than just government regulation/taxation.
There's a significant difference between a punishment that disincentivizes DUIs and a punishment that becomes a crippling force on the person's life. There are more appropriate measures for countering drunk driving, and those mentioned above are not among them.1) I have little pity for your friend who has to live with the consequences of her actions
2) I have little pity for your friend who has to live with the consequences of his actions
Yes. I have a family member that had his license suspended for a DUI. He couldn't drive to work as a contractor legally (and a bus wasn't an option, and he couldn't bring his tools if it were), so he had to drive without a license. He was then pulled over for driving a beat-up van to a job in a very nice neighborhood, and BAM, more debt and more legal problems. It's a law that is hell-bent on punishment, and that's all.
You must understand that most people approach this situation by first thinking, there is no reason anyone should ever drink and drive, and not drinking and driving is an easy way to avoid any trouble with this law. Personally, I think that's a bad argument and poor logical justification, but playing devil's advocate, that's how the other side sees it.
Sure. But let's really look at it through the dispassionate viewpoint of "MADD are fucking crazy." - Drunk driving is bad. But is a .15 bad? That used to be okay; when I grew up in New Mexico, if you were under a .20 (!) you were free and clear to drive all you wanted. How 'bout a .10? That used to be okay in lots of states. How 'bout a .08? That's what it became nationwide in 2005. How 'bout a .05? That's what MADD Canada wants it to be. Are we there yet? How 'bout .02, which MADD has lobbied several states to make the penalty level for minors? So let's get this straight: you're allowed to have a blood alcohol level 4 times higher as an adult than as a kid because, uhm, you're a more responsible driver? Or maybe it's just about being punitive and reactionary in order to get votes, kind of how the penalties for crack cocaine are 20 times higher than the penalties for powdered cocaine? - So drunk driving is bad. how 'bout distracted driving? Is driving while texting bad? Yeah, driving while texting is bad. Is it worse than drunk driving? Well, driving over the legal limit adds 4 feet to your braking distance but according to NHTSA, texting adds 70 feet. So the penalty for texting while driving in Michigan is what? Manacles and hot irons? No, it's a hundred bucks. - Okay, so how 'bout driving while tired? 'cuz that's pretty bad too, right? Why yes, yes it is. Being awake for 20 hours straight makes you drive like your BAC is .05. So what's the penalty for driving while tired? Oh, that's right. there isn't one. - How 'bout cold medicine? - how 'bout driving angry? - How 'bout driving while changing the goddamn radio station? - How 'bout driving while chatting with your buddy in the next seat over? They're all bad. They're all detrimental to highway safety. But they're all a bitch to test for. Blood Alcohol Content? That one's easy. So that one's draconian. Know the biggest objection raised to legalizing marijuana in California? The cops can't test for stoned driving. Or a whole bunch of other shit - but we've already established the pattern that it's extremely lucrative to ruin someone's life for having two beers while nobody has suggested that $6,000 in legal fees is appropriate for texting while driving. And let's be brutally frank - it doesn't even take a breathalyzer. My aforementioned acquaintance, who is not someone I like, refused a breathalyzer. Probably because it was 10 in the morning and he's a surly mutherfucker. But since the cop was white and this guy looks Navajo (he's actually half Hispanic, half pacific islander), the highway patrolman failed him on a field sobriety test without even asking him out of the car. So that whole family lost a car to impound (my dad had to buy them another one) and now it's his wife's problem to drive him to Santa Fe every day. Should the dude have been driving? Fuck no. If you can't keep the car on the road, keep it off the road. My sister's best friend lost her mom on the same road the dude was busted on - not to alcohol, but to falling asleep at the wheel. But whereas the insurance settlement would have been void had she been found to be drunk, the fact that she was totally asleep when she died meant her daughter got her college paid for. Chick is still dead. So yeah. I know what "most people approach this situation by first thinking" but here on this here "thoughtful web" it fucking bears a second thought. And a third one. And maybe a fourth one. And at that point, one hopes one doesn't feel the need to shit in someone else's cheerios just so they can feel self-righteous.
Yeah. Sure. I used to drive stoned every once in a while, and I've met people who judged me pretty heavily for that if they found out. Mostly people who had zero input into the situation. Personally, (and this is what anyone will tell you, in my experience) I was always on hyper-alert when I knew had drugs in my system. But stop swearing at me.
And by being on "hyper alert" you were less likely to be pulled over, right? My whole point is your penalty is being "judged pretty heavily." The penalties for drunk driving are life-destroying for entire families. The flippant answer is "yes, but the consequences of drunk driving are life-destroying for entire families" and I've seen that side of the coin too - we won't get into it. HOWEVER the number of drunk drivers facing life-destroying penalties far outnumber the number of families facing life-destroying penalties. Worse, we've created a system where the tiniest infraction is now judged by large swaths of society to be every bit the crime of mowing through a church full of nuns while swilling single malt. Sorry for swearing at you. I come here because I can hold the place to a higher standard than "most people" most of the time and it galls me when Hubski lets me down.
I have to say -- I think there are a lot of places where punishment doesn't align with crime in this country. And were I to spearhead reform, I wouldn't start with DUIs, for two reasons. Firstly because, it is an actual crime to an extent that certain other illegal things just aren't. Second and more importantly, because talking about rational punishments for drunk drivers tends to get you blacklisted. It's a third rail sort of issue thanks to MADD.And by being on "hyper alert" you were less likely to be pulled over, right?
Yeah, completely.
Now you're arguing pragmatically rather than logically, though. You're saying "we shouldn't deal with this because it's too hard" not "we shouldn't deal with this because it's not as unjust as other things. Thanks to this I know a little too much for my own good about crime and punishment. I don't know where I'd start. It's definitely a place for pragmatism, no doubt. I think if you focus too intently on the practicalities of the matter, though, you'll be so swamped you won't remember the morality that got you there in the first place. And I, for one, don't think MADD is fighting from a position of strength. I'll bet if you blew hard enough you could knock their house down.
And I, for one, don't think MADD is fighting from a position of strength. I'll bet if you blew hard enough you could knock their house down.
This is the only part I don't agree with. MADD is fighting from the strongest position there is -- bereavement. If they can top any argument you make with "my son is dead" ... it's tough to bring rationality into a discussion like that.
That's not so tough. You can say "you're fighting for vengeance, not for change, or else you'd focus on the hardcore." Then you say "your message has gotten so twisted towards temperance that your founder left twenty years ago." Then you say "how much energy have you spent on rehabilitation vs. punishment?" and then you point out "and what has that shift towards punishment done demographically, anyway?" When you start out with the assertion that one side is not required to be rational, you'd best be doing something other than debate. Pathos only goes so far.
In the UK we have introduced laws for mobile phones and drugs, while you could also be taken to court for dangerous driving under any of the other scenarios. However, as you mention it is much more difficult to measure if someone is 'too tired' or 'too angry' to drive (unless caught on the dashboard camera doing something stupid), so I expect the actual number convicted is tiny. Also, you would still receive an immediate ban for alcohol as opposed to three/six penalty points for the other offences. However, if you go to court and explain the importance of your license to your life, the judge will likely give you an alternative form of punishment. I think we take a sensible approach to road laws as a general.
In the US, it's "reckless driving" which is a moving violation as opposed to "driving under the influence" which MADD has turned into a misdemeanor at best and a felony at worst. "Reckless driving" makes your insurance cost more. "DUI" gives you a criminal record.while you could also be taken to court for dangerous driving under any of the other scenarios.
| his usual brusque manner is in full force.| uh... this blew up in my face. Apparently by stating I have "little pity" for some one was interpreted as: I hope they die and rot in a shallow grave, unremembered by any living soul. This of course is not the case. I've already reached out to kleinbl00 privately, but I should say for the record, I'm not judging anyone or damning anyone for their behavior. I have some pity for them because in these cases, the punishment does not seem to fit the crime. As far as nuance goes, no, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but as originally stated, I don't agree with the author that higher taxes, increased punishments, or more governement involvement is the answer. Rather, solving our crime problem is much more nuanced, requiring efforts in the personal/social/familial elements of our lives. Thanks for the personal attack though.But that's a bit too nuanced for you.
And more importantly, there's a difference between "punishment" and "rehabilitation." My friend with the DUI from Michigan served 72 hours in jail. All the rest of this shit is part of her "rehabilitation." Like the breathalyzer that she can't do at her house. Like the twice weekly AA meetings she must attend, to the total annoyance of AA, because she's not even vaguely an alcoholic. Like the letters she had to get fifteen friends write (and notarize) talking about how we never see her touch that demon liquor and how she's totally a changed person now that she's been in lockstep with the good ole state of Michigan. Like the $225 an hour she gets to pay that lawyer to read our letters, proof-read them, and then send back for changes so the whole cycle can begin again. The "punishment" was 72 hours in jail. All the rest of this bullshit? That's to keep our streets safer. Right? Right.
That's aweful. I always been confused by DUI laws. One guy I know had his license suspended and had to attend classes just for carrying an open beer (For someone else) in public while underage, while not driving. Another has gotten two DUIs for driving high and to my knowledge, has not gone through nearly the same shit.
The truly galling thing is she can't drive. She has no license. She gave it up so that she'd have less time under "probation." So there's no reason for Michigan (or any other state) to care what her blood alcohol level is - she's not operating a motor vehicle. But she still has to blow in a tube twice a day. Michigan doesn't care whether she's driving a vehicle drunk. They know that if she does that's a whole 'nuther crime. They care whether she's drinking at all. And, as I mentioned, in order to consider her "rehabilitated" (which is what she needs to be, in order for Michigan to release her license number so that she can get a license in another state, EVER) she has to get fifteen friends to testify under penalty of perjury that she's not just not drinking and driving, but that she's a teetotaler. First offense. Had she caused "property damage" while under the influence, her first offense would be a FELONY DUI and she'd be eligible for up to five years in prison... and she'd never be allowed to vote again. And every time she filled out a job application, she'd have to check that box that says "yes" next to "have you ever been convicted of a felony."
And you know, now that I think of it? Remember that time you told me to fuck off because I tried to say something nice and you didn't have the first fucking clue how to read anything but what you wanted to hear? Just so you know, telling me that you think my friend's life and livelihood deserves to be completely fucking destroyed for one mistake is the kind of shit that will make me never ever ever fucking talk to you again. You don't know what you're talking about. In your defense, I didn't give you enough to really give you a sense of anything but in your condemnation, you jumped right the fuck into the gap. The person in (1) is someone you would like. The person in (2) pulled a fucking knife on my father in his own kitchen and has served time for armed robbery and I'd gladly see him dead, but the fact of the matter is the "punishment" of making him blow every day 40 miles away and dragging his wife into it so that neither of them can work (particularly when sensible alternatives have existed for decades doesn't benefit society, doesn't benefit the legal system, and only serves to benefit the cronies that keep these operations running. But that's a bit too nuanced for you. Apparently "fuck drunk drivers" is as far as you can see. Maybe your mom was killed by one. Maybe your entire fucking family was wiped out. I don't know and I don't care. Neither of the people being discussed have the first fucking thing to do with you. So back the fuck off.
You have little pity because you think the punishment fits the crime. For blowing a .09 at 4am, having never been charged with any crime before, she's out $27,000 and nine months' work. But then, you're from michigan, which I've sworn never to visit because of bullshit like this.
Part of the problem is sentence activism from judges. They give these assholes so much autonomy that it becomes a crapshoot. For example one of my best friends had mandatory drug and alcohol tests for 18 months for having one gram of pot on him when he was a passenger in a car that got searched. Meanwhile if you draw a different judge or are a few miles down the road in the next county, you might get off scot free. It's a terrible system, partly due to the fact that we have a moderately liberal majority and an arch conservative minority. But all that said, I don't think it should keep you from visiting if you get a chance. The shore of lake Michigan is one if the most beautiful places in the country.
I have had a number of friends that have gotten DUI's in Michigan at a young age. They end up having to go to expensive classes, losing their ability to drive to work and having to pay outrageous fines. It marred their life and did nothing to curb their drinking, and honestly some of them really didn't drink that much to begin with. It made them criminals for being common. I have also had friends be killed by a drunk driver. Driving "drunk" should be illegal, no doubt about it but I have known good, responsible people that simply became a revenue stream for the state because they were barely over the "limit". I think the point kb is making is that the law has nothing to do with protecting citizens and everything to do with punishing them punitively through life-ruining, poorly constructed and antiquated methods. I don't have enough info regarding the situations to ascribe pity or a lack thereof but if they are similar to some of the situations I've witnessed, pity is justified. You'll be glad to know that your comment did get me to open a bible :)Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
Ephesians 4:29