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comment by user-inactivated
user-inactivated  ·  3178 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The Results are In.

IntimidatingScones and I talked about this, and we came to the conclusion that Hubski didn't feel welcoming from the start for her. This makes me worry for new users.

Example:

Let's take this from the view of a new user. The new user, after lurking for maybe 20 minutes, makes a post that is quite interesting to them, but it may be controversial to others. They believe Hubski will accept their post, because a friend told them Hubski was a cool and accepting community. Another user makes a comment on the new user's post that could have been written better and the new user sees as unnecessarily harsh. The new user doesn't know about the ignore function, and is quite hurt that someone would be that mean. Thus the new user decides to quit coming to Hubski, and moves on believing that the whole of Hubski is similar.

END SCENE

If I tried to integrate into a community and that happened to me, I can assure you that I would move on and never look back. Luckily it didn't happen to me, but that doesn't mean that it won't happen to other new users in the future. Sure maybe it's assuming too much of the community, but the new user doesn't know that. Haven't you ever been put off of something after trying it out for the first time? I agree that there is the aspect of the commenters intentions being good, but not everyone would ask for clarification after being offended. Some people would rather just drop the issue as a whole.

But you ask, "Why should you care what some anonymous user on the internet thinks of your one post? Screw them and move on!"

I ask, "Why not?"

Because it's some random person's opinion? It still hurt. If someone came up to you on the street and said that shirt was ugly, wouldn't that hurt? It's the same thing. Sure it may not be a big deal to you, but it will be a big deal to others.

I'm not saying that hubski as a whole is like this, I love hubski and the community, but if you were that new user would you say the same thing?

The point I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong dear, is that we can do better. Better moderating posts, better calling people out, better communicating, and just having a better community in general. There aren't any mods, so we must be the moderators. We need to set down a list of ground rules as to what we want this community to be, and to support.

We need to be the change.



kleinbl00  ·  3178 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh

for

fuck's

SAKE.

You wanna air dirty laundry? Let's air some fucking dirty laundry because if you're going to make me your fucking bogeyman, we're gonna see both fucking sides of the coin.

@intimidatingscones@ is butt-hurt because in response to this, which I saw as the archetypal "suffering beats success" diatribe about art, I posted a fucking Van Halen-grade Motivational Speech.

I was immediately muted ("The new user doesn't know about the ignore function, and is quite hurt that someone would be that mean!") and recieved this love-letter:

    I don't know what got you so damn butthurt, but lay the fuck off the young writers. It took me seven years to write it because I was going to high school, through college, AND learning to write, all with severe dyslexia. It had to be rewritten A LOT because I was doing that oh so shameful thing called learning. Fucking get over yourself. You want me to yelp to the high heavens, well good job because nothing pisses me off more than one writer trying to shove their insecurities and deadlines up another writer's ass. If you're pissed that you sold out and I didn't then be pissed at yourself; don't go mucking up my parade.

    If sympathy fucks are the worst kind, then gift my book to someone who will actually read it for enjoyment. I don't need shit from you.

To which I spent an hour crafting this response:

    Well then.

    1) I have no reason for knowing you're young.

    2) I have no reason for caring you're young.

    3) I have no reason for knowing you have dyslexia, severe or otherwise.

    4) I have no reason for caring if you have dyslexia, severe or otherwise.

    5) Writing isn't graded on a curve.

    6) Writing isn't graded at all.

    Wanna be a writer? Write. Don't make excuses. Want me to read your writing? Tell me why it's awesome, not why it's so hard for you. I mean you exactly zero ill will, now as then. I still have a great deal of sympathy despite the fact that you do not seem prepared to hear anything that isn't delivered in the tone of voice you require.

    If your brony buddies asked you why they should read your book, would you tell them that it's an erudite exploration of self delivered through fantasy? Or would you tell them that you worked really hard on it? 'cuz even your friends need a compelling reason.

    I've got scripts my wife hasn't read. That's not an insecurity thing, that's a "I don't think it's for you" thing. If your writing isn't for your friends, don't expect them to read it. Do expect, however, to have to fight for your readers, always and forever.

    Helen Keller wrote a book. So did Christy Brown. Adversity's a bitch, don't get me wrong... but in the end, the only reason people read books is because they're entertaining. You can call that "selling out." I call it "putting food on my family."

    It's a quote, by the way. "Barbaric YAWP." Walt Whitman - who, even though he was a conscientious objector, wandered around civil war battlefields ministering aid because he wasn't afraid to get dirty. Died at 72, lungs shriveled to the size of bananas, unable to walk for the past 20 years, having finished his "deathbed edition" of Leaves of Grass.

    I doubt either Whitman nor Hemingway drew comfort from describing themselves as "failed."

Still muted, I received in response:

    Bona Fortuna, Miselle Passer.

(Good luck, unfortunate little sparrow)

In short, to reward two solid hours of effort spent delivering honest, heart-felt, tailored advice to another writer, I got "fuck off and die" and "Latin insults are the best kind of insult."

I'm still muted. If I want to have a conversation with IntimidatingScones it's via PM, and that worked out oh so very fucking well.

So you know what? The problem here isn't the community. The problem here is that some people really want to be offended. She's got me on mute, so I can't say anything to her one way or the other, nice or mean.

But if you wanna keep talking backwards about the big bad boogeyman who, in fact, is one of the few people to actually make an effort (one writer to another) to address the core feelings rather than saying "there, there, it's noble to think that you suck" you might wanna get your facts straight and see just how much of a terrible person that boogeyman actually is.

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IntimidatingScones  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  

kleinbl00, I muted you because you're a jerk to me and a lot of people. It's not news to anyone around here, but it was news to me a week ago. This isn't about you being a jerk though. It's about someone completely different saying something sexist that might drive women away. It might explain the trend. Seen above. In the graph.

Not about you.

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kleinbl00  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You muted me because I told you what I thought you needed to hear instead of what you thought you needed to hear and because you aren't actually interested in discussing your ideas in open discourse. But that's okay. We'll get into it further because you and your boyfriend are an informative case study.

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IntimidatingScones  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    We'll get into it further because you and your boyfriend are an informative case study.
Point and fact. Don't be a jerk and people won't mute you.
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kleinbl00  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Interesting. So "audience" equals civility?

Are you sure you want to go with that?

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thenewgreen  ·  3178 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    we came to the conclusion that Hubski didn't feel welcoming from the start for her.
Here is her first post, I'm not sure how we could have been more inviting? Let me know.

You're definitely right that we could do a better job of letting people that are new know about the tools at their disposal. These tools are designed so that we can take control of our experience here so that we don't need people moderating behavior on your behalf. It will never be perfect, but we can certainly strive for it to be better. This said, the post that hurt her feelings was overwhelmingly positive. The negatives that she felt came from a minority of comments that seem to me to have been intended to give helpful advice but did so using a forwardness and perhaps an aggression that obviously offended her. But if I walk around asking people what they think of my shirt, I might brace myself for the possibility that someone may not like it. If 9/10 like it and are kind in their interpretation of it, I'd count that a victory. But that's just me.

I agree that the best way we can build a thoughtful community is to "be the change". Set examples for new users by conducting ourselves via the "golden rule". But I don't think I'd like to visit a place where everyone always told me my shirt looked good. Sometimes it's nice when people don't like your shirt and tell you why.

I'm glad you like it here, I do too. I'm glad you and others in the community try and think about ways to improve the site, including IntimidatingScones -her first post was about a suggestion that we adopted. This is a journey that we're on and the site is definitely changing and will continue to. Glad to have you aboard. I'm going to think on ways to make the new users experience better. Thanks for the food-for-thought dupurz.

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IntimidatingScones  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  

To clarify, I never said I was angry about the suggestions for my writing, or even that I was angry about the sexism, but just pointed it out using myself as an example. I never raked anyone across the coals in any of my interactions in those threads. I explained my point of view with the suggestions and ignored the sexism assuming it was just one person. But a graph like that suggested to me that I might not be the only one getting that treatment, that it might not have been a fluke after all. I posted my observation and a suggestion of support and action. I'm sure, thenewgreen, you're point is somewhere on the cusp of "We aren't all sexist," and yes, I agree. It was overly dramatic. I'm sorry.

I was just trying to say let's watch out for one another, ok?

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user-inactivated  ·  3178 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Whoops okay so maybe not " from the start, " but you see my point. While I agree the post was overwhelmingly positive I've found that most people, even in a sea of support, focus on the one negative. I'm guilty of this myself. I agree that being in a community that always said positive things would become drab. However, if they could say it in a better way, that would be preferable. Maybe that's asking too much, but it's what I would like.

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thenewgreen  ·  3178 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That doesn't exist in real life, yet alone online communities. I would suggest you go through all of the interactions IS and yourself have had on this site and then ask yourself what Hubski could have done differently? I'm not seeing it, aside from making the tools available more obvious.

Anyways, on to other topics :) hope you two have a great night.

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user-inactivated  ·  3178 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You too! Sorry for the miscommunication. Hope all is well.

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user-inactivated  ·  3178 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Problem.

    and is quite hurt that someone would be that mean. Thus the new user decides to quit coming to Hubski, and moves on believing that the whole of Hubski is similar.

    If I tried to integrate into a community and that happened to me, I can assure you that I would move on and never look back.

Hypersensitive users like your hypothetical are not who I want to be a part of my internet experience, anyway. Do we want to be known as a "cool and accepting" community? Well, personally I'd rather we be known as a knowledgeable and intelligent one, if we're known as anything, which hopefully we won't be. Cool is fine. Whatever "accepting" means, I see as an afterthought. Just one man's opinion, although I'm reasonably sure kleinbl00, who your hypothetical seems mostly directed at, would agree with me.

    The point I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong dear, is that we can do better. Better moderating posts, better calling people out, better communicating, and just having a better community in general. There aren't any mods, so we must be the moderators. We need to set down a list of ground rules as to what we want this community to be, and to support.

I'm not sure what you've seen on hubski, and what you've seen on the internet in general, to make you think that hubski isn't one of the only bastions of acceptance and intelligent discussion I've ever found anywhere online. I mean, you're talking about "reforming" an internet third space that is worlds better than anything remotely of its ilk. No point. Enjoy it for what it is, use the ignore button, or move on if you see fit.

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kleinbl00  ·  3178 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's not like effort wasn't made to reach out.

I love how my comments have suddenly become "sexist" when at the time, she accused me of picking on the young.

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user-inactivated  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't know what you want me to say, haha. You're obviously in the right. And just as obviously the issue doesn't have anything to do with gender. I don't really care, I'm gonna go back to my weekly music threads; I like them.

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kleinbl00  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Vaya con dios. I was simply responding to point out that I'd responded.

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user-inactivated  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  
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IntimidatingScones  ·  3177 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It is a lot to do with better, and so much to do with new users.

A big part of my point is that when you're new to a site you don't know the norm, you don't know the local trolls (COUGHSEEBELOWCOUGH!) and the only way to do that is to lurk. Which is probably why that's exactly what most people do. But I'm not a wallflower. I prefer to go up to people and say "hi."

But yeah, when I'm very quickly discriminated against, the community pales quickly even if the local moderator did say "Welcome, nice to have you around."

The comment was hurtful to me. I have never seen men and women communicate differently. I don't write that way because I didn't observe that. Could it be possible lil noticed that difference because she is a different generation? Maybe older men and women feel more of a barrier, because in their times issues were still being ironed out? Nowadays, supporting behavior like that is a bit backwards. Let's not undo the work that lil and her generation worked so hard to accomplish.

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