a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by sogre
sogre  ·  52 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Juicero, but make it for coffee

    No the inherent shittiness of capitalism absolves all of the laughably bad faith actors.?

No. Capitalism is what enables them to optimize for profit within given parameters. Any system would create them, being mad at parameters allowing shitty optimum rather than someone doing it can at least provoke a discussion.

    Poor fucking billionaires! ...is.. is your face sweating right now

"Treating another human being as if they aren't one is reprehensible" means "defending billionaires." Sure, whatever-you clearly hear what you want to be angry at, and I don't need to be here for that.





ButterflyEffect  ·  52 days ago  ·  link  ·  

look you two

this thread is for making fun of the stupid fucking idea that is the nunc.

back on topic please!

kleinbl00  ·  51 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Random shitposting aside, I do feel this bears discussion, albeit in a less fingerpointy way.

Wikipedia lists Tim Draper as a "third generation venture capitalist" which is kinda tough for me because - playing the Old Card here - bad ideas used to be dangerous or niche not outright fraudulent. Lawn Darts. Salad Shooters. Pet Rocks. Vegematics. The products we used to make fun of were either trendy things that we didn't actually need or outright scams - compare and contrast ZZZZ Best and WeWork. Barry Minkow had to go to the mob because his idea was clearly fraudulent. Adam Neumann could go to Matsayoshi Son.

The idea used to be that venture capital allowed ideas and products that weren't backed by major industrialists to come to market. The idea has become that venture capital allows ideas and products that aren't backed by Kickstarter to provide a profitable exit as they get sold or become publicly traded. I don't think VCs are inherently evil, but I do think that the financialization of the process has divorced it from public judgment. I mean, this is a dumb fucking idea:

It's an even dumber fucking idea than this dumb fucking idea:

And anybody who touches it can tell you. But that's not what we do anymore. We start in "stealth mode" where friends of rich people spend money. Then we do a hype cycle where friends of rich people spend money. Then we do the barest-of-bare engineering and design to get a "minimum viable product" out the door and do the hype cycle again, and then it hits the public who howl like banshees about the stupidity. Meanwhile the VCs - the guys in charge of the process - get paid. The engineering and design teams get a bunch of stories they may get to tell someday when their NDAs expire. And Wired gets to write a feel-good story about that plucky band of online adventurers - the "makers" - rescue a bad fucking idea just enough where they can continue to masturbate all over it.

"Stupid products bought by VCs" didn't used to be a genre of television, man. And while the VCs are clearly culpable I'm unconvinced they're solely responsible for this. Obviously they do better with a higher hit/miss ratio but just as obviously they're profiting anyway.

If you brought the nunc to market through, say, a pre-2008 economy you would find no shelf space. It would be an expensive thing with expensive beans. The model for dumb shit like that would be to give you a free coffee maker to lock you into the beans - the first PS3s cost $900 to make and sold for $500 because Sony wanted your living room. Prior to the iPhone cellular carriers lost money on the damn phones to lock you into a contract. Prior to that, I mean - you couldn't buy a phone from AT&T, you had to rent it. Lock-in isn't new, it's the idea that you should mortgage your house for the privilege of overpaying for fucking juice.

Here's a guess:

This shit dates back to the slaps on the wrist everyone earned from exploiting the shit out of non-GAAP accounting.

    The use of non-GAAP financial measures began to change in the 1990s, when companies began providing non-GAAP earnings and disclosures that they argued provided investors with improved insight into the company’s ongoing core business earnings. When presenting non-GAAP information, companies have significant discretion in adjusting GAAP-based earnings by excluding noncore expense items or including revenue items not recognized under GAAP rules. In response, the SEC continues to evaluate whether companies are using their discretion in non-GAAP earnings reporting to inform or mislead investors. This article details the SEC’s historical treatment of non-GAAP measures, reviews problems associated with non-GAAP measures, and provides ways that a company’s auditors, accountants, executives, and audit committee members can reduce the probability of a non-GAAP disclosure being deemed misleading.

My first exposure to this nonsense was in 2006. I worked for a company that had every plan to become the #1 source of music in the world (reader, they did not). Their big metric was EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation & Amortization. In other words, "every possible way to make the balance sheet look good without listing anything what-so-fucking-ever related to running a business." It'd work like this:

We'd sell a music subscription to, say, Bank of America. The idea is, they're going to give us $20/mo for piping the Fugees into the lobby of every BofA. That's 6900 banks! That's $138k a month! $1.66m a year! Except we're going to give them a 40% discount for the first two years. So really, it's $993k a year. And we're giving them the system for free. Which, with installation, comes in at $2500/store. So... $17m in outlays. And it's a five-year contract. So... we're spending $2500 to earn $1000... seven thousand times. Except what we report - non-GAAP - is $140k a month in recurring monthly revenue (RMR) STRAIGHT INTO THE VEINS of our EBITDA. It gets better though because I report the price of our player as zero dollars because we make it and we can give it away. The player department reports 6900 sales at $1200 ea because non-GAAP, we just "earned" $8m from selling players to Bank of America.

Fifteen years later, long, long, LONG after every shop you know is running a Spotify playlist, that company was acquired by a conglomerate using private equity money. Why? Because the RMR is still theoretically there while all the losses have been washed through investors.

I think fundamentally if you create a climate where people get away with crime, there will be crime. And if you don't call it crime, people will call it "the business environment." And here we'll be, wondering how the fuck they can think we'll pay $3500 for a coffee juicero.

ButterflyEffect  ·  51 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    We'd sell a music subscription to, say, Bank of America. The idea is, they're going to give us $20/mo for piping the Fugees into the lobby of every BofA. That's 6900 banks! That's $138k a month! $1.66m a year! Except we're going to give them a 40% discount for the first two years. So really, it's $993k a year. And we're giving them the system for free. Which, with installation, comes in at $2500/store. So... $17m in outlays. And it's a five-year contract. So... we're spending $2500 to earn $1000... seven thousand times. Except what we report - non-GAAP - is $140k a month in recurring monthly revenue (RMR) STRAIGHT INTO THE VEINS of our EBITDA. It gets better though because I report the price of our player as zero dollars because we make it and we can give it away. The player department reports 6900 sales at $1200 ea because non-GAAP, we just "earned" $8m from selling players to Bank of America.

Yeah, you know, I've wondered about this having worked for 1 company who cared mostly about EBIDTA and another who does care about it, but since we don't have shareholders are like "we'll report it and try to optimize it but it's not a be-all-end-all". I'm not sure what you do about that one other than tighter SEC regulations which...lol that ain't happening.

kleinbl00  ·  51 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't think it's "regulations" so much as "enforcement." I think if some bankers had legit lost their jobs and/or gone to jail over the Great Recession? Tea party doesn't happen. Trump doesn't get elected. Nobody talks about disbanding the Department of Education. The fact of the matter is, everyone responsible for making sure that shit didn't happen again were the guys who made it happen in the first place. Instead they're all fucking untouchable. And that was after Jeff Skilling and Bernie Ebbers - Enron and Worldcom respectively - served only twelve fucking years. This guy? This guy crashed AIG three years AFTER the FBI was investigating them for fraud.

Fuckin' DOGE has made bigger accounting misstatements than Worldcom did.

If you don't call it crime...

am_Unition  ·  51 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Involuntary, Main-character, Live-action, PKDick-Immersionism!

Step right up, step right up! We are a small business (1 guy, 2 hours/ever)! Non-money-adjacent sectors exclusively!

BREAKING: ...We are an even smaller business! (Never Happened, not even once ever, per guy)

am_Unition  ·  52 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I ordered one of these and all of the coffee was black tea

4/5 stars

am_Unition  ·  52 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    being mad at parameters allowing shitty optimum rather than someone doing it can at least provoke a discussion

Let me recap this for you: We have had the discussions. These people are the problem. They are now literally the system. The ultrawealthy. And they do not care about you.

I have been quite amazed at the number of people who will politely, quietly settle themselves into their own graves, and ask me why I'm going after the guy dragging them behind the barn so viciously.

I love the idea of not being angry right now. Edit: Oh well. Yeah I'll try to humanize the ten people intentionally psychologically torturing a few million federal workers and contractors. Sorry. Edit2: citation

Edit2: One more thing. The wealthiest man in the history of the world has illegally broken into the treasury of the richest country in the history of the world, lies about really anything that enters his vision, and has recently said, to Joe Rogan and an audience of at least several million, deadpan; "and people are living much longer, unfortunately", to justify throwing your grandma out of her nursing home soon. Focus on the capitalist system..? The issue is that this isn't capitalism. Capitalism is now "the good ol' days". This is a coup of the united states by the billionaire investor class. So no, I won't be saying anything remotely like "yeah maybe we shouldn't call these idiot Nazi shitbags 'locusts'".

I'm sorry I know this seems incredibly mean, but this has been elevated to Serious Shit and I'm not gonna sit around and do some bothsides kumbaya reprieve while we all get gradually less and less safe, wealthy, and fucking decent. I don't enjoy this! God

am_Unition  ·  52 days ago  ·  link  ·  

All of this heated rant, and thousands more like it from the exact same guy are part of the nunc.-hubski collaboration catalog, and can be yours today for 125 easy payments of $15.99