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comment by thenewgreen
thenewgreen  ·  1378 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: If your parents or grandparents still plan on voting for trump...

Then, what can be done? I’m very concerned that he is going to win another term.





kleinbl00  ·  1378 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Focus on the positive, duh. Give them something to run towards, rather than something to run from.

"Hey, looks like most of the country really wants to address systemic racism this election. I hope something good comes of it" beats the ever-loving shit out of "your guy uses nazi imagery in his Facebook ads you should be ashamed of yourself."

OftenBen  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

None of this addresses the "Jesus hates abortion, Democrats support abortion, I hate Democrats" crowd which dominates.

kleinbl00  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/03/donald-trumps-ever-shifting-positions-on-abortion/

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trumps-evolving-stance-abortion/story?id=38057176

https://qz.com/1623437/trump-shifted-from-pro-choice-to-pro-life-as-he-planned-a-presidential-run/

https://time.com/5783257/donald-trump-pro-life-evangelical-voters/

We'll pretend for this morning that you're asking an honest question, instead of snarking about how much religion sucks as per usual. We'll pretend that this is an answer you're curious about, rather than being reminded that you haven't groused about religion in three days. In the spirit of that open discussion:

it wouldn't kill you to make the point that Trump's demonstrated opportunism around the abortion debate, combined with his diffident response to the value of life in general, make him a poor standard-bearer for the pro life movement. You could also argue that he has already placed two staunchly pro-life justices on the Supreme Court so his practical purpose to the movement has been served. Finally, you could point out that Trump's clumsy and opportunistic claims at being a supporter of the pro-life movement are actively driving fence-sitters away from pro-life positions and putting a generation of religious-but-not-conservative voters forever beyond the reach of the pro-life movement.

Or you could sit there and snark about how hopeless it all is, how stupid they all are and how put upon you are to be related to them. Choice is yours, champ.

OftenBen  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Your snark presumes that I haven't had it out with them with these arguments.

I. HAVE.

All possible respectful venues i could come up with have been tried and smacked down with bible verses and references to democrats.

kleinbl00  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

"Haha!" he said, "It was a trick question all along! I wasn't looking for an answer, I was looking for a fight!"

We've been having these discussions for several years now, haven't we? Can I just point out to you that the way you "debate" anything is to ask a question, ignore the answer and then go "HA HA! you have fallen into my trap! I can now ignore your every sentiment, satisfied in my own smug sense of superiority."

You and I actually agree about nearly everything. Yet your move, without fail, is to pick a fight about the one tiny little aspect where we don't. We're on the same side of this issue yet you have me rooting for your relatives because their disapproval hurts you more. You aren't looking to convince anyone you're looking to self-reinforce your isolation. Do you actually have any confusion whatsoever as to why they don't listen to you?

If you want someone to listen to your arguments, you need to listen to theirs. And then you need to respond to what they say, not what you justify their position to be. Ask yourself these questions, and actually consider the answers:

- Do they love you?

- Do they think you think about things?

- Do they value your opinion?

- Are they willing to listen to you about other issues?

- Is there a bond of kindness, family, familiarity or affinity between you and them that allows you a rhetorical avenue not available to strangers?

If any of the above is true, you need to debate them differently than strangers on the Internet, no matter how much more fun it is to argue about how stupid they are. Nobody wins when everyone just leaves madder.

OftenBen  ·  1374 days ago  ·  link  ·  

No, to all of your questions.

kleinbl00  ·  1374 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Then why the fuck are you having these discussions?

OftenBen  ·  1373 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Because these things matter????

kleinbl00  ·  1373 days ago  ·  link  ·  

So by your own assessment, you are hectoring people who

- Don't love you

- Don't care what you think

- Don't value your opinion

- Are unwilling to listen to you about other issues

- That you have no particular connection with

...out of a sense of zeal...

...and then expressing your frustration to the rest of us in the form of pugnaciousness, truculence and a general combativeness about the futility of debate with a population that you have no empathy for.

Just wanna make sure I've got the full picture here.

b_b  ·  1373 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Whether someone loves OB is different than whether he loves them. The rhetoric notwithstanding, it's hard to give up on family. I could be off base, but clearly he cares out else he wouldn't dedicate any energy to it.

kleinbl00  ·  1373 days ago  ·  link  ·  

don't fuck with my rhetorical flow I've done this before

b_b  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think that's a smaller component that you believe. I think the overwhelming majority of GOP supporters look at their pay stubs and tax bill and decide solely based on who is going to let them keep a larger percentage of the gross. Everything else is just rationalization. I guess like you I base this on my experience. I know a lot of solid republican voters, and none is a born againer (although a couple Catholics I'm friends with a solidly anti-abortion, though also solidly rich). The key to reaching the tax set is convincing them that percentages be damned, if they continue to vote GOP they can keep 100% of nothing after Trump ruins our economy. If the GOP got 100% of the only-cares-about-abortion vote and nothing else, they would get 0 electoral votes, 0 senate seats, and probably a few house seats.

kleinbl00  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I think that's a smaller component that you believe.

Gallup puts it at six percent.

    Highly religious white Protestants constitute about 15% of the adult population, and by aggregating data from 2016 through 2019, we get a reasonable estimate that about four in 10 among this group say that abortion should be totally illegal. This is higher than among Trump supporters or Republicans (or the general population) yet still leaves more than half of the evangelical group who favor legalized abortion, at least in certain circumstances.
b_b  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That sounds right. Compared to Castro's 9% approval rating among Americans in his later years, I'd say that 6% is pretty fucking close to irrelevant as a voting bloc. I think what the "centrist" voter would like to hear from a candidate is some version of, "I don't support killing fetuses that could survive on their own outside the womb except in extreme medical circumstances." I'll bet that's the default stance of like 80% of the population, but you wouldn't know it from anyone's platform planks.

OftenBen  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

This conversation is aimed at influencing the opinions of people who are still committed to vote Trump come november.

If the reason they state is religious, specifically Democrat support of Abortion, what can you say?

My experience tells me that educating them that abortion rates drop when fact based sex education is taught and contraception is available is fruitless. It is the legality or criminality of the act that is important, nothing else.

b_b  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yeah but I'm saying I think those people are beyond reach, given up for dead. The only convince-able ones, IMO, are the rational-money set.

OftenBen  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm thankful to hear someone say it out loud other than me.

b_b  ·  1375 days ago  ·  link  ·  

C'mon. Castro and Congress each get like a 10% approval rating on surveys. There's always a subset of people you should just write off. I think that subset is small enough that they could be irrelevant if moneyed interests start jumping ship. After all, it was the moneyed interests who specifically brought them into politics to shore up their voting bloc, which was waning in the late 70s to early 80s. I don't so much care what people believe on their own time, but I would be as happy an anyone to see religious zealots once again be irrelevant in the political sphere.