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comment by Odder
Odder  ·  448 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: I was Jordan Peterson’s strongest supporter. Now I think he’s dangerous

    It might be better to challenge him by being public figures ourselves and communicating the exact opposite vision rather than writing articles debunking him.

While we're quoting Nietzsche: "You wish to multiply yourself tenfold, a hundredfold? You seek followers? Seek zeros!" There's no point in trying to be the next Peterson, once your time in the limelight fades, the zeroes will all just find someone else to follow, someone who might be completely unlike you in every way.

If you really want the playbook, start by telling people the truths nobody else is telling them, then the half-truths and lies that they want to believe are true, and then, assuming they're still listening, you can sell them on whatever you want.

nil  ·  448 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh, Nietzsche runs antithetical to everything Peterson believes. I love it. He's said things about embracing chaos and quite literally proclaiming the death of god.

I don't know if all of Peterson's followers are zeroes though. They are in the sense that they're weak, but there seems to be two categories here. You have your standard consumers who agree simply due to political affiliation. Maybe they are the zeroes. These people are stubborn and unreachable. His self-help fans on the other hand, I mean, they are the opposite of cocksure. They're just lost in life for whatever reason, and are so desperate for an answer that they think maybe spending $30 will solve it. Completed individuals do not require self-help. You hear the life changing anecdotes and think, really, this guy changed your life? People who are really depressed are willing to do anything to make the pain go away, and if pop-culture is promoting a public intellectual with "the answers" they might be willing to listen. Any program seems superior to total nihilism at that point.

I think that's what I was trying to get at in my post. There are people that are stubborn but they mainly fall into the first category. The second category includes a lot of people unable to make up their mind about anything and therefore they can potentially be engaged. These are the same people who "bounce" from thinker to thinker. Actually saw a dude saying his favourite thinkers are "Carl Sagan", "Jordan Peterson", "Mr. Rogers" or something along those lines in their Tinder bio. How can you not realize the internal inconsistency in all those views?

So there needs to be an alternative perspective that can get people out of that depressing nihilism without all of Peterson's baggage. I don't know what that might be. The affirmation of art as Nietzsche does is interesting, but I don't know if that will work.

bfv  ·  448 days ago  ·  link  ·  

From the outside, there is way to much ressentiment in Peterson's following for Nietzsche to be a good substitute. You're never going to sell those guys on Nietzschean affirmation.

Plus Angry Young Men tend to take all the wrong lessons from Nietzsche.

kleinbl00  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Plus Angry Young Men tend to take all the wrong lessons from Nietzsche.


ThatFanficGuy  ·  446 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    How can you not realize the internal inconsistency in all those views?

There may be no inconsistency. Adopting ideas selectively is not a sign of cognitive dissonance or intellectual clumsiness.

I admire Peterson's (early?) lectures on YouTube. They showed me the road of life a little better. "Find meaning in your life". "Things won't come to you - you have to work for them". "Be the best version of yourself". "Make the best version of your opponents point of view - and then argue against it". Great ideas - not simply in the sense of splendidness but also in grandure.

That I admire those ideas doesn't mean I accept everything the man says. I had my doubts about the gender pronouns. I was somewhat willing to go along with the idea because I respected the man's psychological perspective on things that seemed, until then, covered in mist. I wanted to know how life works, and he gave that to me, so I reluctantly followed his other ideas.

It doesn't make me a social darwinist, or a conservative, or a misogynist. I think it just makes me a clueless yet curious young man with no authority figure to provide the necessary knowledge.

I think life is beautiful, and I even get to enjoy the idea sometimes. Depression is a bitch; otherwise, I think I would've enjoyed being kind to people far more often. Or maybe not, 'cause maybe my desire to be kind is fueled by the misery I feel and 'cause I don't wanna see people around me frown like I do. The dark well, and so on. Still, I think life is beautiful and is worth enjoying. I think people need to be more open about their feelings, especially to each other, and I think people need to stop worrying about being inadequate so damn often. We're all just walking each other home.

    So there needs to be an alternative perspective that can get people out of that depressing nihilism without all of Peterson's baggage.

This might be what you're looking for.

Odder  ·  448 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The zeroes i was referring to were your second group, the people who require "self-help: from someone else. They are zeroes in the sense that they so completely lack their own personal conviction and identity that they don't see the contradiction in following Mr. Rogers and Jordan Peterson.

The first group is one I'm not sure exists as separate from the second. A lot of people may have been drawn to Peterson because of what he says about identity politics, that Canadian bill, etc. but I think they mostly stayed because of how Peterson targets their insecurities, reminding them of their zerohood and in the process convincing them of their need for him.