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comment by OftenBen
OftenBen  ·  431 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: More Religious Leaders Challenge Silence, Isolation Surrounding Suicide

    it's not a mortal sin if your mind is clouded, which is the biggest loophole ever and totally an intentional one, and regardless of what happens, it's up to god to judge whether people deserve it anyway

Behold, apologia. If

    it's up to god to judge whether people deserve it anyway

was actually taken seriously in any way, there would be no church, and people would just trust God to reward and punish as he sees fit.

user-inactivated  ·  430 days ago  ·  link  ·  

again, if you read

    Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

    2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

that's literally the position of the catholic church on the issue

the point of "god is the ultimate judge" isn't that you can just do anything you want in life willy-nilly without needing to care about moral choices - the point is that it's not the place of people to say "this person is going to hell" or "this person is going to heaven" because it's taking away the authority of god to decide that. it's possible to both condemn suicide and allow for suicidal people to be forgiven.

i realize that you've had terrible experiences with christianity, and i understand why you'd want to reject all of it, but christians aren't necessarily unthinking drones or comic book villains

and you can call me an apologist if you want but i'd prefer it if you didn't - i'm not claiming this stuff is true, just that this is the position of the church on it

OftenBen  ·  430 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I didn't call you an apologist. I labeled, correctly, the catechism you've cited as apologia.

I will leave you with a quote from Men In Black.

    A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

Any individual Christian I come across, I can likely find some common ground with and relate with them as an individual and not hate them, even if i disagree with their theology and cosmology.


Christians, writ large, are the largest force working against many of the public health goals that would see human suffering reduced to levels that were unimaginable for the vast majority of all of human history, because of their high levels of participation in national and international politics.

Both of these things can be true simultaneously. Reprehensible group behavior, like voting against the recognition of LGBT+ people as people, is the aggregate of choices made and actions taken by individuals.