I'm not so sure that SF is far worse than the rest of the country, at least the Midwest. Or maybe I am upsetting people and I am a bit obtuse.
At any rate, I agree with Sam. We are not fragile. We are resilient. Countless generations before us have demonstrated as much. You don't disarm ignorant ideas by banning them, you expose them to reason.
Point to where the evil white people culturally appropriated your lunchI'm not so sure that SF is far worse than the rest of the country, at least the Midwest.
I think the burrito thing was a confluence of events: - angry hippies in Portland that hate that rich people are moving there - foodies - The Worst Fucking Thing to come out of Seattle, fucktard trademark mcpompousface, decided to stoke the shit out the problem. things went worse than expected. From the wayback: This week in white nonsense, two white women—Kali Wilgus and Liz “LC” Connely—decided it would be cute to open a food truck after a fateful excursion to Mexico. There’s really nothing special about opening a Mexican restaurant—it’s probably something that happens everyday. But the owners of Kooks Burritos all but admitted in an interview with Willamette Week that they colonized this style of food when they decided to “pick the brains of every tortilla lady there in the worst broken Spanish ever.” “...You can eat $5 lobster on the beach,” Connelly said, “which they give you with this bucket of tortillas.” The “they” she was referring to were probably the Mexican “abuelitas” these two women preyed upon in order to appropriate the secrets of their livelihood. Suitably impressed, these tourists began asking the locals questions about how these tortillas were made. “They told us basic ingredients,” Connelly said, adding “[but] they wouldn't tell us too much about technique.” Hmmm. Wonder why? This is where things go from quirky to predatory if you haven’t already guessed. “…We were peeking into window of every kitchen, totally fascinated by how easy they made it look,” she said. So let’s recap the story thus far: These two white women went to Mexico, ate tacos, and then decided they would just take what the locals clearly didn't want to give them. If that wasn't bad enough, they decided to pack up all their stolen intellectual property and repackage it in one of the few places where such a business could plausibly work: Portland, Oregon. While describing themselves on their Yelp biography (which has since been edited), Connelly claims to have “a mean tortilla flip” while Wilgus anointed herself as the “director of vibes” and “our little abuelita with recipes from the heart”—even though the recipes were stolen. Week after week people of color in Portland bear witness to the hijacking of their cultures, and an identifiable pattern of appropriation has been created. Several of the most successful businesses in this town have been birthed as a result of curious white people going to a foreign country, or an international venture, and poaching as many trade secrets, customs, recipes as possible, and then coming back to Portland to claim it as their own and score a tidy profit. Now don’t get me wrong: cultural customs are meant to be shared. However, that’s not what happens in this city. Because of Portland’s underlying racism, the people who rightly own these traditions and cultures that exist are already treated poorly. These appropriating businesses are erasing and exploiting their already marginalized identities for the purpose of profit and praise. People of color are nothing more than an afterthought when the white perpetrators of this tradition continue to do this on a regular basis. While Portland is supposedly a progressive place, super liberal white people usually only have other super white liberal people to answer to—which means this cycle of cultural appropriation will never end until people of color call attention to it. And call attention to it we did. As soon as Willamette Week, who has a history of publishing racially insensitive food commentary, published this story, people of color were outraged. Even some of those aforementioned super liberal white people. The comments on the article went up in flames, and pretty soon the story was even picked up by a national outlet. Following the WW’s article, one commenter said: “Now that you all boldly and pretty fucking unapologetically stole the basis of these women's livelihoods, you can make their exact same product so other white ppl don't have to be inconvenienced of dealing with a pesky brown middle woman getting in their way. Great job.” Another commenter explained what’s basically a sad truth underlying the Portland restaurant community: “If you knew anything of the restaurant industry (or Google) you'd know that this is true. ‘Ethnic’ chefs are expected to ‘cook from their ethnic backgrounds’ while White chefs can do what these two horrid women did: vacation somewhere and ‘get inspired’ and appropriate an entire culture's cuisine and claim it as their own.” Immediately after the fury continued online, a different resource emerged and quickly went viral: a Google doc showing exactly how prevalent this epidemic is. The list titled “White-Owned Appropriative Restaurants in Portland” provides a who’s who of culinary white supremacy. An introduction to the document begins by saying, “This is NOT about cooking at home or historical influences on cuisines; it's about profit, ownership, and wealth in a white supremacist culture.” And it ends by letting visitors know, “If you've come here in anger, please read at least a couple of these articles before continuing to the list on the next tab below.” Despite this issue being dismissed by supporters of Kook’s Burritos—while our views were seen as just a bunch of angry minorities attacking innocent white women who only wanted to make tacos—the food cart closed as of late Friday. Willamette Week has not taken any responsibility or shown any accountability for their actions. While the closing of Kooks Burritos is a victory, it’s a small one and unless we continue to call this out it will happen again. In the meantime, it helps to support the originators of various cultures. If you’re really dying to get a burrito, here’s a list of six Latin owned restaurants that also exist in Portland.Portland has an appropriation problem.
Where the fuck are the good pizza joints in Seattle. I'll probably hate them regardless, especially since I can't partake in the gyro meat, but still. I've found one great pizza joint so far and that was in Olympia.
Not at all a DC thing. It's a Northeast/Rust Belt thing, though, for sure.
Kinda like how new Yorkers assert that bagels made without the right species of pigeon shit in the water just don't taste right? I grew up in New Mexico. So did my uncle, 30 years before me. We have diametrically opposed opinions as to what constitutes "good" Mexican food.
It's interesting. I probably can't open a soul food restaurant, but I can likely open a Chinese restaurant since my wife is Chinese. But what if I opened a Japanese restaurant? I can imagine people eating their sushi thinking it was so nice that this white/asian couple opened a Japanese restaurant, but then spitting out their food in disgust once my wife spoke (That is unless they can't tell the difference between Japanese and Chinese language, then omg eat up you racist scum!).
Which part do you agree with? Because most of this article is a poorly reasoned, overdone freeze peaches argument. I agree with him that in a debate, all ideas should be discussable. But that's not his argument, his argument is that people can have horrible, destructive and oppressive beliefs and that those need to be tolerated because the people having them are smart. "I feel oppressed because I get flak for having or supporting oppressive and hateful ideas." This is true, but there is a really big difference between 'wacky idea' and 'damaging, oppressive idea' that he completely conflates. One is a bit weird and the other is damaging. Is slavery a "wacky idea"?At any rate, I agree with Sam. We are not fragile. We are resilient. Countless generations before us have demonstrated as much. You don't disarm ignorant ideas by banning them, you expose them to reason.
You can’t tell which seemingly wacky ideas are going to turn out to be right, and nearly all ideas that turn out to be great breakthroughs start out sounding like terrible ideas
My grandpa took me shooting one day. Upon blowing up a gallon jug of water with a rifle, he congratulated me by shouting "You got that Jap!". I know people that exhibit anti-black racist behavior, but have black friends. Many of my Chinese lab mates in Detroit were quite racist against blacks and some against other non-Chinese Asians (Indians, Japanese, etc.). A burka is oppression to me, but I can make friends with men that see it as sacred religious observance. My feelings about sheitels are not too different. I have family members that I love that are homophobic. I am ok if someone thinks that my lack of religion makes me a sinner bound for hell. I am ok if someone thinks that I only have these views only because I am a white male. We tolerate ideas that we feel are hateful and oppressive every day. Our governments practice them and we rarely protest, or even don't vote. The point is, ideas are not nearly as dangerous as an the environment that doesn't allow for people to have them, because an environment like that does not diminish the power of these ideas. Instead it creates ideological warfare. At the right moments, I try to persuade those around me to change their minds about ideas that I find are hateful and oppressive. But I do not believe they shouldn't be allowed to express them a priori or conflate that with tolerance. I am tolerating their right to be ignorant. We are all ignorant. Slavery was considered a reasonable idea for a long time. I don't know about wacky, but I'm not worried about it catching on in the US even if someone expresses support for it. Is the burka a wacky idea? Is banning it a wacky idea? Is permitting it in a photo ID a wacky idea? Ideas should be allowed to compete because when they do, they are forced to create a rationale, and that's the worst thing that can happen to a bad idea.I agree with him that in a debate, all ideas should be discussable. But that's not his argument, his argument is that people can have horrible, destructive and oppressive beliefs and that those need to be tolerated because the people having them are smart. "I feel oppressed because I get flak for having or supporting oppressive and hateful ideas."
This is true, but there is a really big difference between 'wacky idea' and 'damaging, oppressive idea' that he completely conflates. One is a bit weird and the other is damaging. Is slavery a "wacky idea"?
I'll freely admit I'm having a hard time articulating why this article bothers me the way it does. It is in no small part because I think Sam's muddied the water, but also because I think I'm not great at having this kind of debate. I'm not advocating against holding wrong or ignorant ideas. And you should be able to say whatever you want in a rational debate. Free speech, however, doesn't absolve you from the consequences of exercising that free speech. It does not shield you from criticism. Holding a bad idea has no consequences. Saying it out loud, like your grandpa at a gun range, does not always have consequences. But it sometimes does, and then we call it hate speech. Your grandpa can say racist things, but you can criticize his ideas. Some ideas can be hateful, or dangerous, or oppressive, or all of the above, when said or spread or empowered. Some ideas can incite violence or harassment. Those consequences cannot be ignored. Sam wants the consequences and criticisms to go away, though, because it might lead to innovation. The ends (innovation) justify the means. And Sam has quite the means. The thing I didn't touch on earlier is that he also wants to fund those people. That is about as empowering as it gets. It sends a signal that the consequences of the damage people have wrought doesn't matter. It says that the plight of minorities can be ignored if it might enable some racist alt-right doxxer to come up with an innovative idea, and that rubs me the wrong way. ---- b_b, it was a rhetorical question. I brought up slavery solely an example of a damaging, oppressive idea that I think is being put in the same bucket as 'weird startup ideas' by Sam - as if ethics doesn't matter. I mean, imagine if in the list of wacky ideas like radical life extension, he'd brought up slavery. "We have a startup that's working on radically low labor cost! They're getting a lot of flak for it though. I wish here in SF they weren't attacked for their controversial idea. Man, people are toxic."
I get that you were trying to make a rhetorical point. It's just that the rhetoric doesn't hold up. When free and honest debate was allowed (philosophic and scientific), the white supremacists lost. So your point was the opposite of what your thought it was. FWIW, I think a lot of ideas on the valley are dumb and even dangerous. That said, there's no idea that that's too dangerous to parse. There's a reason humor goes it the window in totalitarian regimes. To laugh at oneself is to make an admission that one isn't omnipotent. Free inquiry (as opposed to limitless free speech) is paramount in keeping a free society. Talking through dangerous ideas will expose them. Edit: But I agree with you that voicing your opinions carries responsibility, and that if you want to voice an opinion that people find off putting, dangerous, or immoral, that you better have thick skin. There's no such thing as consequence-free speech.
I don't think that Sam is muddying the waters anymore than they already are. These are muddy waters, they always have been and always will be. All ideas have consequences, but no debate is completely rationale. We need to be ok with that. "Hey Joe, let's hear why you think slavery is a good idea. What's your reasoning?" At the very least, Joe is going to walk away with the realization that his rationale isn't very persuasive. He'll probably also realize that his views make people doubt his moral character. He's going to have to chew on that. However, if we just say "Shut up Joe. Slavery is wrong, we all know that. Get lost, asshole." Joe is not going to have a constructive takeaway that diminishes his convictions. Joe is ignorant. Sam is ignorant. We are all ignorant. Sam isn't making the world worse by not having a moral litmus test for funding startups. Sam funds startups. That's his vocation. Being a misogynistic racist manchild didn't stop Donald Trump from getting real estate loans. It shouldn't. BTW, it's been a while since we've had a good 0-share long discussion post. :)
Right. I'm going point by point, I think that'll be better for the discussion. I meant different waters. You seem to refer to the debate around these sensitive topics - I was referring more to Sam's inability to write an essay that makes sense, his obfuscation/ confusion/conflation of a lot of ideas that he talks about. Sam, in my opinion, is at best imprecise and at worst needlessly vague. Which is what I'd call "muddying the waters", but maybe you have different associations with that idiom. (ESL, you know.) For example, it is still unclear to me what field we're playing on. On the one hand there's the reasonable debate you keep bringing up, but on the other hand, there's "all of society". That distinction does matter: Being ignorant yourself is human fallibility. An ignorant community, e.g. Silicon Valley, means we're talking about systemic problems that needs more than just talking to Joe. And I agree with your approach to personal debates, but I think that Sam is arguing for a practice that I see as a systemic issue: the empowering of hatred, either directly or indirectly. Which leads us to the meat of our disagreement: It didn't stop Trump, we know that. But shouldn't it have stopped Trump? Isn't this exactly what the whole #metoo is about? That there should be consequences for being an awful person? It hasn't been so in the past, but I see that status quo as the systemic problem. I think you see VCs as being amoral, as in lacking morality and ethics, despite the power and influence and money that they yield not just in what they say, but also in who they give thousands if not millions of dollars to. Oh, by the way, Sam just released a "clarification". I think he backpedals by trying to reduce the scope of this piece to just the "reasonable debate" playing field I mentioned.I don't think that Sam is muddying the waters anymore than they already are. These are muddy waters, they always have been and always will be.
Joe is ignorant. Sam is ignorant. We are all ignorant.
Sam isn't making the world worse by not having a moral litmus test for funding startups. Sam funds startups. That's his vocation. Being a misogynistic racist manchild didn't stop Donald Trump from getting real estate loans. It shouldn't.
Fair enough. But I disagree. I found his essay to be clear, but dealing with a complicated issue. It seems easy enough to me to understand his intent and meaning. I'm not talking about personal debate alone. I didn't intend to. I'm talking about open discussion too, blogs, radio, cocktail parties, whatever. Building a rationale for bad ideas is even more difficult in the public sphere. I strongly disagree. Trump's ideas should not have prevented him from getting loans. Criminal actions, sure, but ideas and opinions, no. I do not want to live in a world where my bank loan is subject to a measure of morality, decided by whom? We should be extremely cautious about empowering groups or institutions with the ability to penalize us outside of a legal framework. I recently pointed out the left as a subculture that is drowning in such sensitivities: I am reticent to say what #metoo is all about; I don't think I can. However, criminal acts have been tolerated or willfully ignored. That should not be the case, and I am hopeful that victims will feel increasingly empowered to report it, and that would be perpetrators will know that they will be punished. This particularly matters to me as a father. I thought we all understood what Voltaire was saying. The greater danger is the alternative. BTW, I found Sam's clarification unnecessary. It didn't change my reading of his first. Sam, in my opinion, is at best imprecise and at worst needlessly vague. Which is what I'd call "muddying the waters", but maybe you have different associations with that idiom. (ESL, you know.)
Being ignorant yourself is human fallibility. An ignorant community, e.g. Silicon Valley, means we're talking about systemic problems that needs more than just talking to Joe. And I agree with your approach to personal debates, but I think that Sam is arguing for a practice that I see as a systemic issue: the empowering of hatred, either directly or indirectly.
It didn't stop Trump, we know that. But shouldn't it have stopped Trump? Isn't this exactly what the whole #metoo is about? That there should be consequences for being an awful person? It hasn't been so in the past, but I see that status quo as the systemic problem.
I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire
No. The "wacky idea" was that black people are genetically equivalent to white people. Many people were killed in support of that idea, which we all now recognize to be true. Edit: Laws were passed prohibiting teaching black people to read precisely so that idea couldn't be challenged by open debate.Is slavery a "wacky idea"?
magine how much science this guy could have come up with using the time spent writing this article