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comment by illu45
illu45  ·  2856 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Brexit looks likely.

I agree that there will likely be some new bureaucracy created by Brexit, but I don't think its impact is likely to be all that significant in the grand scheme of things because:

A) The EU already has tons of bureaucracy. Compared to all of the meetings on migration, the environment, food safety, transport, inter-EU trade partnerships, non-EU trade partnerships, Antici/Mertens meetings etc. etc. the meetings with the UK will unlikely be a significant additional burden on the EU. They may be a more significant burden on the UK, but it's difficult to know for sure.

B) There likely would have been new bureaucracy regardless of how the vote went. Given how close it was, I'm sure that there would have been efforts by Cameron and co. to shift the UK's role within the EU, which would have similarly led to new meetings. The meetings are probably going to be more numerous than they would have been if Remain won, but they might actually be more efficient due to Brexit, since both parties want to limit uncertainty and the fastest way of doing that is to get new agreements signed ASAP.

Your strike analogy implies that all UK-EU trade and production is going to suddenly cease until new agreements are in place. EU-UK trade today is pretty much the same today as it was yesterday. Will EU investment in the UK will decrease until new agreements are in place? Probably. But it's not like factory workers walked out of a job. The workers will keep working, trucks/ships will keep trucking/shipping, and bureaucrats will keep on bureaucratizing. This isn't your employees going on strike. This is your employees deciding they want to switch to a different union in a bargaining year. Sure, you'll have to negotiate a new contract, but you likely would have had to do that anyway.

EDIT: As for comparisons to other countries, they all have bureaucratic trade deals and coalitions, from the TPP and NAFTA to BRICS and the SCO. All of those require a significant amount of bureaucratic upkeep, and each of them was created without setting member states back a decade in terms of trade.





kleinbl00  ·  2856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You aren't paying attention.

Yes, the EU has tons of bureaucracy. But now, instead of slowly phasing some out and phasing some in, now they've all been challenged and the agreements between the EU and UK are about to be cancelled.

It's the difference between "we can work this out" and "we're re-negotiating everything."

EU-UK trade today is the same as it was yesterday. But when they push the button on Article 50, it won't be. And meanwhile, every other member state is going to fight this very battle.

I didn't say they were striking. I said they voted to strike. A strike authorization is where bureaucracy gets really ugly. Meanwhile, work continues apace.

Do you understand now?

illu45  ·  2856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You aren't paying attention.

No... I am paying attention. I just disagree with you. Let's keep the condescension out of this, okay?

    But now, instead of slowly phasing some out and phasing some in, now they've all been challenged and the agreements between the EU and UK are about to be cancelled.

The EU-UK trade agreements are unlikely to be cancelled until new ones are put into place. It wouldn't benefit anyone.

    EU-UK trade today is the same as it was yesterday. But when they push the button on Article 50, it won't be

Article 50 isn't a Big Red Button that suddenly nukes all trade agreements. In fact, it's a fantastically vague section of a treaty, which means that exactly how Brexit will work after Article 50 is invoked (whenever that happens) will be up to the UK and the EU, and I doubt that either side is going to go for an option that causes a sudden drop in trade between them, considering that both sides benefit from that trade.

    And meanwhile, every other member state is going to fight this very battle.

Maybe. Maybe not. Undoubtedly separatist/nationalist parties will get a bit of a boost for a while, which may or may not continue on depending on how exactly Brexit pans out for the UK. But referenda take a long time to put together, and the UK was arguably much better-positioned for an exit than a lot of other member states. It remains to be seen if the extra boost actually gives other member states the kind of momentum that they would need in order to get to a referendum of their own, much less to vote Leave.

    A strike authorization is where bureaucracy gets really ugly. Meanwhile, work continues apace.

You've been arguing that the first sentence is key. I have been arguing that the second sentence is much more important than the first. Work will continue apace, despite the new bureaucracy. Will the bureaucracy get ugly? Possibly. As I said, Article 50 hasn't even been invoked yet, so I'd say it's a bit premature to make calls on how the logistics will play out in the long run.

snoodog  ·  2856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I didn't say they were striking. I said they voted to strike. A strike authorization is where bureaucracy gets really ugly. Meanwhile, work continues apace.

Good analogy. I didn't catch that in your previous post.