I do not like anything I read about either of those two people. Or any of these guys. The Piss Christ I brought up cause it's the only example I could remember, but it also fits right along with these guys. I just want to say, in all fairness, I don't want to start the whole "What is Art?" debate. I hate that debate. It's been done over and over and the more involved people get in it, the less happy everyone seems to walk away from it. I remember one time at a barbecue talking to a guy about Vintage Monaco Posters and how even though I wouldn't actively search for a real one, I wouldn't mind having a reprint of one hanging on my walls. He said, in summary, that they're not real art and I should feel guilty for thinking that they were. I said, in summary, that he's a pompous fuckhead and he should feel guilty for saying that I should feel guilty for enjoying what I enjoy. On the flip side, if he told me about these artists with the toilets and the beds and he was genuinely enthusiastic about what they were doing and wanted to share why, I'd be all ears. In a nutshell, that's generally how it seems to go with me discussing art with people. It's not fun. I've had similar conversations about antiques, music, books, what have you. You don't have to like what I like, but you shouldn't have to make me feel guilty for liking what I like or feel compelled to have a drawn out, pseudo-intellectual conversation to defend my tastes. That's assholish. I think that's the thing though. You say with hipsters and their behavior, there's no "victim." I mean, yeah, in a way you're right. The barista didn't shoot you in the back at the coffee place. No one at a barbecue that I've ever been at could be held directly responsible for slave labor in South America. On much smaller scale though, the attitudes they have make people who they think aren't on the "in" feel marginalized. They can make people feel that their life experiences, their tastes and preferences, are diminished in value. Those are negative experiences. That's victimization in a way. You? Me? We take the high road. We think those people might be having an off day at best or write them off as jerks at the worse. Some people though? They're pretty thin skinned. Having to go through conversations like that sucks. The other problem is, these attitudes can lead to real and true discrimination. Take my friend's father for example. Awesome guy, in his mid 60s, loves classic movies with the likes of Cary Grant, Spencer Tracy, Paul Newman, Jimmy Stewart, etc. He knows his country music like the back of his hand, thinks Texas Swing is one of the coolest things ever just by how it happened to come about. He's an awesome, awesome guy and a great conversationalist. He's also old, goofy looking, and speaks with a bit of a stutter. There was a burger place near where he worked that he heard good things about. Great food, run by cool young college people, a place that's really worthwhile to eat. He got absolutely shit service. Now, he's not the kind of guy to complain ever, but he complained about that to his son and I. So we decided to check the place out ourselves. The two of us? Definitely don't dress the part of young or cool either, and we too got shit service. People that dressed the part of the "stereotypical" hipster got checked on by their waitress twice as often as us (yes, we kept track), had the waitress talk to those customers what at least seemed longer, and the overall attitude towards those customers seemed more friendly, warm, and receptive compared to what we got. Anecdotal, I know. While I'm sure that such an experience doesn't happen often, the fact that it happens at all is shitty. I dunno. I read the comment of yours from a ways back that you referred to, arguing that hipsters don't exist. I'd argue against it, saying that just because they don't want to call themselves that, doesn't mean that they can't be categorized under that term. I'd agree with the frailty though. Through and through. It strikes me that people with low confidence place too much value on what they know and the things they surround themselves with, as well as their own perception of self. It doesn't excuse the behavior though. As an aside. Fuck. I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to rant or debate you. It just kind of came out.Really, if you want to look knowledgeable while slagging on contemporary art, focus on Tracy Emin. But remember - good artists borrow, great artists steal.
I'm happy for the discussion. Again, I found myself mentally and verbally lashing out at a culture that I've defended before. You're right - discrimination is bullshit, no matter what form it takes. Prejudice is usually its source. Elitist attitudes foster prejudice which leads to discrimination. But as a privileged white guy the only place I've ever experienced prejudice was amongst minorities. And you know what? I didn't need to be there, and they resented my presence. The important thing is why. I think trying to eat at a Mexican restaurant in Las Vegas, NM is the same as trying to be old at a hipster barbecue joint. They live life without power, in someone else's world, and fuck you this is our time. Like I said, yeah it's douchey that there are places you aren't welcome because you believe in gear shifts on bicycles. And like you said, the better angels of our natures try to take the high road. Emphasis on "try." It occurred to me that much gnashing of teeth and rending of shirts could have been spared had the barista said "you aren't going to like anything here." But that would have totally pissed me off 'cuz who was she to judge me? And really - they were nice, in their own way. If you take as a basic assumption that they make the best coffee on earth and that their customers are lucky to bask in the glory of their artisanal brewing skillz, they were positively magnanimous. I begin to wonder how similar it is to the punk ethos. The music is shit because music is bourgeois but fuck you it's our music. I mean, CBGB's was a hole. Meanwhile the guys that wax nostalgic about Studio 54 are mostly rich assholes.
I wonder how much of the hipster stereotype is due to people saying things like that in a not-necessarily-judgmental way. There are an awful lot of situations that call for saying "you aren't going to like anything here", "you don't care", ... just because they're almost certainly true and they'll save everyone some frustration, but they'll never be taken that way. And maybe it's good that you stop trying to use them with a little experience; sometimes the waffle house waitress really will enjoy hearing about Ramsey theory, sometimes Ned Flanders next door really does want to talk about Christian Death, and sometimes the kiddies really want to be reassured that it's not always just a phase. Still, I don't think it's a coincidence that the people being tarred with the "you probably haven't heard of it" brush grew up with the Internet, where everyone can develop their niche interests as deeply as they want and everyone has been burned by trying to share their enthusiasm only to be met with glazed eyes.It occurred to me that much gnashing of teeth and rending of shirts could have been spared had the barista said "you aren't going to like anything here." But that would have totally pissed me off 'cuz who was she to judge me?
I've eaten at some pretty interesting places before and 9 times out of 10 the waitress can tell I'm out of my element and rolls with it. If the barista were any good at her job, not only would she recognize that you're not her typical customer, but she'd inquire about your coffee preferences and experiences. After two or three quick questions, she'd discover that this is a new experience for you, explain that what they do is a bit different and might not be your thing. Then she could go on and explain what makes their coffee different and why, what they look for in making their coffee and why, so you can try something new and come to a guided, yet natural appreciation for their product. If that's too time consuming, that's what pamphlets are for. I personally do this all the time when talking to people about things that I love and I often tailor my recommendations to what I know about them as a person. Take comics for example. Recently rinx asked me about getting into comics herself. Knowing that she is well read and completely new to comics, I recommended to her titles and authors that are both in my opinion, high in quality while being accessible. Absent from that list though, with one exception, are super hero comics. I really doubt they'd be her thing, or at the very least, her views of the stereotypes of super hero comics might be part of the reason she hasn't explored the medium yet. Conversely, if my friend PlaceboEffect came to me and said he was tired of what he's been reading and is ready for something new, I'd throw different titles his way, but would avoid super experimental titles or slice of life graphic novels, knowing they wouldn't be his thing. When you own or work in a business that revolves around customer service, and especially customer service that involves a product such as food or music, every single time a person comes into your place of business, they are coming to you for suggestions. It is literally your job to assess their tastes and desires and make recommendations based upon their feedback. Making snap judgments about a person and then dismissing them based upon those judgments means you're failing to do your job. This reminds me so much of the mid '00s and nerd culture. I'm sure there were a lot of elements involved, the biggest one being the internet, but all of the sudden elements of nerd culture was becoming mainstream very quickly, like some kind of pop cultural appropriation. All of the sudden there were cute girls buying Invader Zim clothing and accessories, frat boys started showing up to Halo and Magic the Gathering Tournaments, my friends had parents who didn't grow up watching Star Trek or Star Wars falling in love with the TV series Firefly. It's like someone opened the flood gates and all of the sudden nerd culture spilled out and normal people spilled into our realm in the blink of an eye. I remember it made a lot of people very upset. I remember debates where people would slander and accuse pretty girls at comic conventions as posers, doing it for the attention. I remember people saying shitty things about the frat boys at Halo tournaments, saying that they're playing the game for the fun and not because they enjoyed the story or would want to check out any of the supplemental universe material such as the novels (plus, they were probably salty as fuck because a lot of those frat boys were just plain better). While I didn't feel this way myself personally, I understood where this was coming from. We were the ugly, the awkward, the social recluses. Comics, video games, movies, were our escape. They were our emotional shelter. Suddenly, the very people who we felt marginalized us were invading our world. I can see how that would be scary. The thing is, nerds everywhere kind of owe all of those people an apology. Do you think the Avengers would have ever been a possibility if things had stayed as they were in the '90s? Fuck no. Like I said before, Hipsters arguably have good taste. I think that if they opened up a bit more, I think they'd discover that more regular people can appreciate what they appreciate to nearly the same degree. I also think that by opening up and sharing what they have to offer, they'd make a positive contribution to American culture.It occurred to me that much gnashing of teeth and rending of shirts could have been spared had the barista said "you aren't going to like anything here."
I begin to wonder how similar it is to the punk ethos. The music is shit because music is bourgeois but fuck you it's our music.
And thus we come full circle: You're right. Selling me something and making me unwelcome is shitty customer service. But if I were to whip out a map of Washington and ask "where am I likely to find the coffee shops with the shittiest service?" I'd have picked Olympia with little hesitation. There's an undercurrent of seething resentment that drives so much of the city's culture. I think "coffee nerds" plus "stellar service" plus "acceptable coffee" would have had me amused by their pissing whirligig. "coffee nerds" plus "shitty service" plus "terrible coffee" has me attempting to unpeel my onion of anger. Still. How do you fuck up a pourover? Gotta be the beans.However, a "hipster," as viewed from the inside, is someone who thinks things are cool but lacks the confidence to believe they are cool.
Maybe that's what I've liked Olympia when visiting I am now the embodiment of seething resentment so it checks out. And yeah you get bonus points. Capitol Hill is kind of terrible, with a few cool exceptions. Columbia City is becoming one of the next cool spots. There's an undercurrent of seething resentment that drives so much of the city's culture.
ding ding ding and when you consider how many of these hipsters of punk people or whatever the fuck you want to call them are overqualified for whatever (sometimes shitty) job they might be working, while living with 3-4 people after college with no end to this kind of shit in sight, what else can you expect. The economy is fucked in metropolitan areas and this is an outlet for people who don't have much else. I can go to some persons house who loves music and is a-ok with people drinking crap beer and thrashing around in their basement, or drinking crap beer and sitting around to some folk music. And yeah, you (a general you, not "rd95" you), probably won't feel comfortable in that situation and people aren't likely to go out of their way to make you feel comfortable because who are all these people in their thrift store clothing, tattoos, and piercings and why are they talking about things that often have no tangible impact on them oh right they're the people society likes to call unproductive or marginalize in whatever way possible. Meanwhile, let's take a look at Capitol Hill in Seattle. Historically an LGBT neighborhood, a lot of creative people, marginalized people. Modern day: housing prices are absurd, tech folks have moved in and the bros of your nerd days have become the bros of the present day, homogenizing the area and opening the floodgates to push others out. I Hate the Weekend kind of captures what I'm trying to talk about. Am I angry? Kind of, yeah, especially when last night I had a couple people ask me where the neighborhood right next to Capitol Hill is when it was pretty clear they just go find some bar, get plastered, and call it a night. Who are these hipsters supposed to open up to? How are they supposed to be expected to trust people to entertain the things they like without co-opting them? Guess I'm just kind of angry at the air right now and I don't expect many people to agree with the above but oh well, that's life and that's Hubski.They were our emotional shelter. Suddenly, the very people who we felt marginalized us were invading our world.
Just one thing I want to set straight - Cap Hill was historically a business district (mostly car stuff). Then it was a ghetto, with poverty, crime, rampant drug use. Then it became a gay / artist / hipster area, then it became the brogrammer paradise it is today. The hipsters complaining about getting kicked out are are conveniently forgetting they kicked out the broke addicts to move in. Hipsters aren't victims, they are another step in the gentrification chain.
We communicated with one another last night and he said it has more to do with him and stuff going on in his life than Hubski or anyone here. He knows that he is always welcome back. He may come back after a hiatus. I hope so.
As was Fremont, and Ballard, and Greenwood, and Georgetown, and ... Cap Hill was historically a business district (mostly car stuff). Then it was a ghetto, with poverty, crime, rampant drug use. Then it became a gay / artist / hipster area, then it became
Fair, I muddied too much of that together. And now we're going to kick everyone out of the Central District whooooooooo.
Maybe I'm misreading the situation, but that sounds more like class struggle and gentrification to me. It doesn't sound like they're upset because a bunch of squares started riding fixies and recently discovered the melodic beauty that is the mandolin. It sounds like they're upset because being poor is painful, left, right, and center and to be reminded of that position, of poverty and marginalization, is frustrating. I dunno. Class and culture go hand in hand. It's the difference between a fiddle and a violin, between Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Jeff Gordon. At the same time though, as close as the two concepts are, they can also be separated.
Yeah I've been having trouble maintaining a single line of thought lately, maybe a more direct reply would have been saying "take a look at Mumford & Sons and the rise and obliteration of folk music and/or look through peoples reactions whenever anybody signs to a major label." Actually about a month ago now I brought somebody to a DIY show who had never been to one before, and generally hasn't exhibited much interest in those kind of shows. Throughout the night this person asked "where are people getting the beer from" "is everyone smoking because they think it's cool?" "oh so I don't have to donate?" and things along those lines. That's why people don't open these things up to the general public.
Resentment over capitalism taking your culture and selling it back to you has been a thing since the 70s at least, but I think it's novel that everyone else gets pissy about "hipsters" appropriating their thing. I see a lot of hate for industrial, noise and metal bands that get reviewed in Pitchfork and don't have much connection to the communities they're borrowing from (getting reviewed in Pitchfork but having that connection gets a pass), and the communities they're borrowing from are mostly outsiders too.
Mumford and Sons is to music what going to an Indian restaurant and asking for a chicken tandori with a "1" on the hotness scale is to food. People enjoy it because it's something new, something a bit off the beaten path, but still accessible. Someone enjoying Mumford and Sons does not in any way take away from your ability to enjoy music by The Pogues or Tallest Man on Earth. If anything, it gives you the opportunity to share further with people. "Oh, you just discovered Mumford and Sons and like them? Maybe you should check out some of these guys. They might be right up your alley." Everything out there has something that is more appealing to "mainstream" people. Cars have Honda Civics. Folk music has Mumford and Sons. Coffee has Starbucks. On and on. The purists and the eclectics though? The people who have a true passion for their hobby? They still know how to find what they want.
rubs eyes This is where I disagree. This is what I attempted to outline. "I like folk music" "I like all kinds of music except country" "insert whatever else here" that effectively communicates "I like this but I have no nuance in what I like about it and haven't put forth the effort to delve beyond what's being given to me". I can recommend music to people and I have many, many times in the past, but the people in the above, the general, average person, does not, in my experiences take it upon themselves to take a deeper dive into these kinds even after providing some recommendations.Hipsters arguably have good taste. I think that if they opened up a bit more, I think they'd discover that more regular people can appreciate what they appreciate to nearly the same degree.
So? That means they just don't care as much about music as you do. If you feel compelled to recommend something, because you think they'll enjoy it, do so, then let go. If they explore it, great. If not, once again their dispassion on the subject doesn't diminish your passion unless you let it. Besides, your suggestion might stick with them, compounding on top of suggestions from others. Know how long it took me to watch Pulp Fiction from when I first heard it until I actually sat down and watched it? About a decade. Know how many times it was suggested to me in that time span? Probably 50. Eventually though, I sat down and watched it. Sometimes, even if you don't think you're reaching someone, you probably are.I can recommend music to people and I have many, many times in the past, but the people in the above, the general, average person, does not, in my experiences take it upon themselves to take a deeper dive into these kinds even after providing some recommendations.
We clearly have very, very different levels of cynicism towards others.
I'm very cynical. Towards massive corporations, towards corrupt governments, towards people of power in general who abuse their positions. The average person though? Whether they are better or worse off than us in terms of privilege, wealth, influence, or what have you, they're still human, trying to get by like you and me. They're not being wilfully malicious or even wilfully neglectful. They're just being human. The best we can do is encourage them when they're doing right and speak up when we feel they are doing wrong. Sometimes though, you'll catch yourself calling someone an "asshole" under your breath. It happens. I do it all the time, whether I mean to or not.
Do I get points for hating Capitol Hill back to the mid '90s? Even when I was in college it was the U district at twice the price. Parking has always sucked, housing has always been run down, and the denizens have always lorded their digs over you. I mean, I had 1500 square feet with a view of Lake Washington sort of in the no man's land between Wedgewood, Sand Point and Lake City and I had it for $900/mo. Meanwhile, I dated a girl who lorded her $800 portion of her shared-three-ways 1000sf 3BR on Cap Hill. The cool spots have shifted from Downtown Pioneer Square to Georgetown to Ballard and Cap Hill has always been where idiots pay too much to convince other people they're cool.