Just out of curiosity, how do feel about killing dogs? The following is acceptable in some countries:
I'm not fond of any killing. if a family has to kill a dog to eat and survive - so be it. If people are killing boxes of dogs for "fun" or because some other idiots couldn't handle a pet or wouldn't have their pet fixed - them shame on them. I don't know why people bother with pets in the first place... But that's another topic for another day (which I know I am weird and probably in the WAY minority on).
If I understand you right, you disapprove of dog killing where it's perfectly acceptable in some cultures. May I ask why you feel that way about dogs and not about other animals that are killed unnecessarily, such as all the cows, pigs, chickens and so on? Just to try and explain where I'm coming from, the feeling that you and most people have when they think about dogs being abused and killed with complete ruthlessness is exactly the same feeling that vegans feel about any other animal killed purely for human enjoyment.If people are killing boxes of dogs for "fun" or because some other idiots couldn't handle a pet or wouldn't have their pet fixed - them shame on them.
Nice straw man. I said I'm not fond of killing. Dogs, cows, pigs... I make no distinction. Look. I get where you're coming from. I'm glad you have your convictions. I appreciate your perspective up to a point. Your militant proselytizing is working against you. There I was, somewhat agreeing with you that a large part of the U.S. population is lazy about what and how they consume meat. And you flipped out and threw a box of dead dogs at me. Nice try - but I regard dogs EXACTLY the same as I regard squirrels, bees, cows, fish, etc.: they all serve a purpose on this rock. Your blatant baiting for an argument has backfired. Where you once had a sympathetic ally, you now have someone who is reminded why militant vegans are as bad or worse than lazy meat eaters. It makes me hungry for a nice cheeseburger. Make it a double, and add bacon.
I don't get your response to my sincere question. I was trying to make the point that different cultures have different beliefs of what's acceptable animal abuse. I showed you the abused dogs to try understand where you stand on animal abuse since you said "Millions of people around the world (and even in the evil USA) track, hunt, kill, and butcher their own meat. And they love it." I wanted to know if abusing dogs was ok for you as it obviously is ok in certain Asian countries. I'm trying to show you the selective animal discrimination or specie-ism that we're taught and brought up with. It's a shame that you see that as being militant. If that makes me a vegan extremist, what does it make of meat eaters? As for your last sentence, I'm sorry but that's just childish and coward to take your frustration on the defenceless and voiceless.
As for your question about dogs, a utilitarian may not have an issue with it as long as the dogs are treated humanely. What that actually means depends on what kind of utilitarian they are (preference, hedonic, negative, etc.) Whether that's even possible within the current system, however, is another question.
I'm more curious to know how you feel rather than hypotheticals. Are you an utilitarian? What utility can be derived from killing a dog? As for being "treated humanely" what does that mean? Is it ok to kill someone if we treat them well while they are alive?
Well, if a family derives pleasure from dog meat, then that would be utility. Under classical utilitarianism, if the pleasure of that family outweighs the harm done to the dog, then it would be ok, though no utilitarians today actually believe in this naive formulation of utilitarianism, due to problems that should be obvious. Under negative utilitarianism, which shifts the focus to reducing suffering rather than increasing pleasure, there wouldn't be sufficient grounds for subjecting a dog to the dog meat industry unless the industry caused negligible harm to the dogs. Harming dogs would be permissible, however, if it prevented greater harm to other humans and animals (like with medical research). No, because I, like most people, happen to believe that we have extra duties towards humans that transcend the basic utilitarian framework.As for being "treated humanely" what does that mean? Is it ok to kill someone if we treat them well while they are alive?
It's a shame that you answered with hypotheticals rather than your personal views. When I said "Is it ok to kill someone if we treat them well while they are alive?" I was actually referring to animals. I don't see them as things I see them as individuals with their own personalities, social bonds and capacity to enjoy life, even if they can't always express it in a way that we understand. Following your view that humans have extra duties (i.e. rights) that don't apply to animals, who would you feel more connected to a child rapist paedophile or a puppy? And why?
Well, ok, I generally consider myself to be a negative utilitarian and a preference utilitarian (that is, harm is defined as frustration of preferences, not just bad feelings). But on top of that I also understand that human society is necessarily governed by social contract, which to an extent creates extra rights and duties within the human community, the national community, and the family. I never said I don't see animals that way. Indeed, as far as I know we're scientifically compelled to. Again, it depends. The pedophile has violated the social contract and basic moral norms, and any sane society would ostracize him/her. As for this puppy, it would deserve protections as a result of its being a sentient being. If it was my puppy, I would have greater moral obligations to it as a result of our relationship. If it was just a feral puppy, probably not.I don't see them as things I see them as individuals with their own personalities, social bonds and capacity to enjoy life, even if they can't always express it in a way that we understand.
Following your view that humans have extra duties (i.e. rights) that don't apply to animals, who would you feel more connected to a child rapist paedophile or a puppy? And why?
Great, so in this particular case you wouldn't grant special rights to the paedophile simply because he was human. The puppy on the other hand would enjoy well deserved protection. Up until here do we agree that species should not be the sole measurement of provision of rights since the puppy would enjoy more rights than the paedophile? Now my final question is, do you think that the selective animal discrimination ingrained in our Western cultures, where dogs and cats are treated with love and care and pigs, cows, sheep, chickens and so on are bred, subjugated and killed to serve our pleasure, is fair? I'm referring to animals in modern societies where we've gone past survival and we now know that it is scientifically possible to live without animal products.The pedophile has violated the social contract and basic moral norms, and any sane society would ostracize him/her. As for this puppy, it would deserve protections as a result of its being a sentient being.
Yes, we never disagreed there. However, I think the provision of those extra rights comes from membership in a civilization, country, and family, rather than membership in a species. Hence, animals we keep as pets, which belong to our communities, are entitled to those extra rights, whereas livestock animals that do not belong to our communities are only entitled to rights and protections granted by the basic utilitarian framework.Up until here do we agree that species should not be the sole measurement of provision of rights since the puppy would enjoy more rights than the paedophile?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. So what's the criteria for selectively using some animals for companionship and others for taste pleasure in an age when we can live without those?animals we keep as pets, which belong to our communities, are entitled to those extra rights, whereas livestock animals that do not belong to our communities are only entitled to rights and protections granted by the basic utilitarian framework.
Custom, I guess? That's not morally relevant within my framework as long as the proper rights and protections are given to the animals in each role (which, as you've indicated, we usually don't do, which is unethical).So what's the criteria for selectively using some animals for companionship and others for taste pleasure in an age when we can live without those?