Someone with no education in the area made an infographic about California water. Water used for pasture and alfalfa (mostly fed to cows) does represent a big chunk, far more than can be conserved by reducing residential consumption. Just wanted to repeat that.I have been reducing my meat intake, but not because I believe that I shouldn't eat meat, but because they cost SO MUCH WATER as a crop.
Demonizing the people you are trying to reach is a really, really bad way to make positive change in the world.
On reflection, I want to clarify that I have a lot of respect for organicAnt, by whose worldview we are most of us a lot of callous murderers. It is exceedingly difficult speak up for those you perceive as voiceless victims without antagonizing those you perceive as oppressors. I think we should all carefully examine our participation in institutions that may contribute to invisible suffering and either offer legitimate moral counterarguments or else back down. It is much like the abortion debate: if you can't give a coherent argument that abortion does not result in the death of a human, it's a weak excuse to complain about the way your opponents approach the subject.Just wanted to repeat that.
Thanks wasoxygen, I appreciate you trying to see things from my perspective, which is really the voiceless victims perspective. Just to be clear I've never called anyone and I don't honestly think most people are "callous murders" but I do think most people are unaware and unwilling to look at reality as it is. Besides all the ad hominem I get, when I discuss this with people I witness plenty of mental gymnastics, hypothetical examination and intellectual analysis of edge cases, as people desperately search for the tiniest excuse to justify the gigantic core of animal abuse. I'd like to try a mental exercise with you and readers in order to understand your threshold of what is acceptable animal abuse. For example, what would you do if you saw a toddler kicking and beating a baby pet such as puppy? Hopefully most people would stop it. How do you feel about the image of a cat being skinned alive? Most people would feel outrage and anger. Why would anyone in their right mind do such heartless abuse, right? Now consider the fur trade, how do you feel about skinning other animals alive for fashion? Let's say the animals are killed before being skinned, does that make it ok to kill, say foxes, for human vanity? How about poaching of elephants, hippos or giraffes for fun? What if we bred elephants in cages for their whole lives so we could harvest their ivory, or drink their milk, would you be ok with that? How would you react if you found someone dunking your favourite pet in boiling water? Does that make you feel anything? If it does you're closer to how I and millions of other vegans feel, regardless of species abuse. Now please read the previous paragraph several times before answering, replacing the animals mentioned for pigs, cows, chickens, turkeys and fish. Stop reading it when you stop having the feeling of outrage (if you had it at all, I hope you did). Please let us know at what point you stopped feeling outraged and why. What is your threshold of animal abuse? (Perhaps this should be the title of a new thread?)
If you think it would be helpful, I could rank all those examples in order of outrage, beginning with boiling my favorite pet. I am not completely comfortable with any of them, but some bother me more than others. In each case, I would ask how big is the harm and how big is the benefit. Answers won't be easy, but I will probably count leather shoes as more beneficial than fur fashion accessories. I would probably count the benefit of providing food as greater than providing entertainment for a hunter. I would prefer that a hunter kill and eat an animal rather than simply killing it. To measure the harms, I would want to know how much the animal is capable of suffering, how long and acutely it suffers, and whether it would have existed and suffered at all if it were not created to serve someone's purpose. To be honest, I will be more sympathetic to cuter and gentler animals rather than, say, sharks. I think most people around here are opposed to needless, pointless suffering. There is some diversity of opinion over how big the benefit has to be to justify animal suffering. And I suspect that there is some intentional ignorance over what goes on with industrial food production to avoid difficult questions. I maintain some ignorance myself, it's not pleasant material to see or think about.