Respectfully Conflating defeat with shame is misguided; acquiescence with defeat even more so. An all-or-nothing mentality doesn't get one very far, especially in long-term relationships where give-and-take is the name of the game and acquiescence is often very much necessary. As I said above, I wasn't sure I was ready for kids when we had our first. This could be taken for acquiescence- should I feel shame for it? I also think there's a tangible difference between a hypothetical situation in which one isn't sure they want kids at all, never bothered to communicate this to their SO, presumably never bothered sounding out SO's stance, and just kind of goes along with it without exploring their own desires; and a real-world example where one knew they wanted kids but didn't know exactly when, knew their partner wanted kids earlier rather than later and validated this view, and decided that, in the absence of any immediate and disqualifying personal goals, might as well take the plunge despite lingering doubts. Ain't nothing wrong with not wanting or having kids. Likewise, I like to think that my personal decision and the circumstances surrounding it doesn't somehow make me socially or morally inferior.
My intent was only to explain why that particular phrasing sounded shameful, nothing more, and I apologize that it came across that way. I agree, except for one point. 'Give and take' should have no part in the creation of a human life. It should not be a bargaining chip.I also think there's a tangible difference between a hypothetical situation in which one isn't sure they want kids at all, never bothered to communicate this to their SO, presumably never bothered sounding out SO's stance, and just kind of goes along with it without exploring their own desires; and a real-world example where one knew they wanted kids but didn't know exactly when, knew their partner wanted kids earlier rather than later and validated this view, and decided that, in the absence of any immediate and disqualifying personal goals, might as well take the plunge despite lingering doubts.
Fair enough. In terms of lives as bargaining chips: I'm not espousing this idea. Rather, I think "do both of us want kids" should be one of the few fundamental questions discussed by anybody looking to enter into a long term state sanctioned relationship. If you don't bother to establish that before jumping into the soup, there are probably plenty of issues that could very well scuttle the relationship before kids ever enter the equation. Hence, lives-as-bargaining-chips shouldn't ever be part of a successful partnership. Doesn't really fall under the "give and take" category. If you didn't agree to it in initial discussion, maybe that relationship isn't for you. If you never discussed it before entering the relationship, ditto.