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comment by user-inactivated

    The trouble, I think, is when ostracizing a viewpoint as “beyond the pale” becomes not an end but a means to an end; that by declaring something unsayable, we make it so. It makes me uncomfortable, even as I see the value of it. I for one would love homophobia to fully make it on that list, to get to the point where being against gay marriage is as vulgar and shameful as being against interracial marriage. But it isn’t. Maybe it will be. But it isn’t. And kicking a reality-show star off his reality show doesn’t make that less true.

Yes it does. Declaring something unsayable doesn't make it so, but actually enforcing the consequences on a new subject does make it unsayable. If the reactions to racist language and homophobic language are the same, they have become the same.

    The bottom line is, you don’t beat an idea by beating a person. You beat an idea by beating an idea. Not only is it counter-productive—nobody likes the kid who complains to the teacher even when the kid is right—it replaces a competition of arguments with a competition to delegitimize arguments. And what’s left is the pressure to sand down the corners of your speech while looking for the rough edges in the speech of your adversaries.

You can only completely win a public argument by rendering the competing idea unsayable. People will only avoid saying things if they face personal consequences. So you beat an idea by beating the people who hold it and promote it.

The "Culture of Shut Up" exists because it works. It's not new, it's been around for as long as hierarchy. It only becomes apparent when there is no totally dominant ideology. People only complain when their personally held ideas become a target. Example:

    occasionally I’ll make a dumb joke on Twitter and the next thing I know it’s on a whole bunch of conservative websites that exist to catch liberals crossing the line. As much as I can pretend otherwise, I’d be lying if I said it didn’t make me hold back just a little, doubt myself a little, on occasion.

Those of us with ideas outside the mainstream have known all of this for a long time. It's funny to watch liberals and conservatives learn about it.





insomniasexx  ·  3661 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    People will only avoid saying things if they face personal consequences. So you beat an idea by beating the people who hold it and promote it.

I agree with this - but I don't know how applicable it is to beating down pop culture stars, reality stars, etc.

One of my guy friends (here in LA) has only experienced gay culture in the form of ultra-flamboyant and sometimes cross-dressing or transexuals who walk the streets mid-day in West Hollywood. He used the word "fairy" and "faggot" without regard to the degrading nature of his words. He asked me what "twink" meant and if a guy who had approached him asking him for spare change earlier was a "twink".

Every time he would make an offhanded remark, I would look at him, stunned, and ask him if he knew how fucked up it was that he spoke and thought like that. It was really weird to see someone who I consider a friend, in real life, speak in a truly ignorant manner. I went to art school, where it's harder to find a straight guy than a gay guy and no one looks twice at your sexual preference (unless they are trying to get in your pants). It really bothered me. After a couple of insom rants, the frequency of him using those words dropped significantly. I don't know if it was only when he was around me or he actually started to realize how ignorant and spiteful he was being.

Regardless, he watches a lot of TV news and especially likes watching TMZ with his bong rips. His actions and thoughts weren't affected by the media tearing down reality stars or the drama surrounding Chic-fil-A. None of it affected him, even though he watch it play out, because it wasn't directly applicable to him.

Obviously, this is purely anecdotal. The difference in opinions that you, the author of this article, and I have lay with the end goal of enforcing these types of consequences.

I don't think that 24/7 media coverage, pulling out of advertisers, and suspension of shows, forcing people to step down, or boycotting restaurants is a good way to inform, educate, and change the world we live in. I don't think 140 characters and blog comments are going to incite change. But I also don't know what affect not doing this would have. Would ignoring people who made racist or homophobic comments and letting them keep their dollars hurt the progress we are making? Would those not involved in the controversy think it was okay to think and speak like that? Or would it have no affect either way?

I don't know.

The bigger issue is that we can't have productive conversations about these topics on a mass scale. Every blog, article, youtube video that covers a controversial subject has 1000+ angry comments. What is most striking is there are no mid-range comments. It's 100% black or 100% white. Hate or love. Disgust or enamoration*.

These comments are not conversation and are not going to make people change. Real conversations need to happen, which might lead to real education. That won't sell newspapers or ad space during afternoon talk show though. And, quite frankly, is boring to 90% of the population. At least all the yelling and screaming and shouting is entertaining. At least people are watching it, even if it's through a cloud of bong smoke or while snapchatting.

Maybe all those ignorant commenters and commentators who aren't adding value should be locked in a room with klienbl00. Maybe after a couple hours of participating in a true debate / argument / conversation where any ad hominem arguments are shut down immediately, someone will learn something.

*is that a word?

user-inactivated  ·  3657 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I agree there is little productive discussion on a mass scale. But mass scale discussion is the way small scale discussions start. Shutting down or at least criticizing high profile bigots is important because it's how otherwise isolated people become informed or maintain hope, and it enables people like you and I to start personal conversations that do the real work.

Also, mass scale discussions that permeate the media provide cultural background for the next generation. Our grandparents won't be changed by it, but today's kids will. Certain kinds of racism became unacceptable via media suppression, the same can happen with homophobia and transphobia.