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comment by _refugee_
_refugee_  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Alec Baldwin: Good-bye, Public Life

Theatrics. How is calling a man a "cocksucker" as an insult not clearly a homosexual slur? It's like saying "Yeah I called him a pussy but I didn't think that was sexist."

We all know what it means, to call a man a queen. There is one meaning, and it's a homosexual slur. I can't fathom someone not knowing this. That term has been around since at least the 80s and has always been meant as a slur.

Any intelligent person who uses slang knows what it means. A "douche" is, as lil has pointed out to some of her students, really a reference to douchebags and "cleaning" a female's vagina. When I say "That sucks" what it really means, outside of the slang context, is "that sucks balls/cock." When I say "That blows" it has the same meaning.

You cannot call someone a "bitch" and say "Oh I meant a female dog in heat." You cannot call someone a "faggot" and say "Oh I meant a bundle of wood." You cannot call someone a "queen" and say "Oh I didn't mean a homosexual queen."

mk  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I feel conflicted about cocksucker. I would never use the term faggot; its connotations are crystal clear to me. The word cannot be used freely of its meaning in these days. However, although I can't recall using cocksucker, it's almost like motherfucker to me. I have never called someone or anything a motherfucker with the intention to imply that they have intercourse with their mother. It just comes out as a curse with a life of its own. Motherfucker is serious, you use it when you are seriously mad. Hitting my thumb with a hammer might bring cocksucker out. It's one of those words that I would hope not to use, but I find it difficult severely faulting someone from Baldwin's generation from using it. Most of his life, it was probably a generic curse and it has gained baggage. It's wrong, but its context determines the extent. I'm not sure here.

_refugee_  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I honestly think most of the furor from the gay community has arisen from the perception that he has used the word "faggot." I think "queen" is where the secondary umbrage lies. I would set "cocksucker" at a distant third. I know that Baldwin denies using the word faggot; I haven't heard the video and I'm not stating whether he did or did not. This seems like a case where hackles have been raised and upset feelings have occurred, perhaps before all facts were presented. You could even argue that "cocksucker" wouldn't be a slur if thrown at a woman. Again, I think "queen" is the bigger problem here, and I think Baldwin's justification that "he didn't know" the word was a homosexual slur is ridiculous.

Once hackles have been raised it's hard to soothe them down. To be clear, I want to like Baldwin. I like the work he's done that I've seen. His claim of ignorance, though, rings false to me. He very well may not have used the word "faggot" and I think the perception that he did is what truly caused the fire - but now that it's lit, it's very hard to put out.

b_b  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Cocksucker is like motherfucker! Just ask George Carlin. NSFW.

Hell  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Do you think that, in his anger Alec was purposely using an expletive that was homophobic? He could have just as easily called the man a piece of shit or an asshole which would have not targeted any specific group of people.

When people grow up they are surrounded and influenced by the words of their peers. In high school and through adulthood especially in New York, swearing is nothing to blush at. While the literal meanings of those words are slurs, the intent of the person saying them shouldn't automatically be assumed to be racist, homophobic or sexist when the expletive itself was likely the result of muscle memory and the general vocabulary of their upbringing.

Not sure why I'm defending a celebrity on here, but I guess my consensus is that people are too fucking sensitive.

_refugee_  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

By your logic, Baldwin could've called the man a n* and it would be the black people's fault for getting upset about it. You really ready to stand by that?

Let me know as soon as we live in a society where not intending to do something becomes a valid defense for having done it. While you're at it, you can let everyone who's ever been convicted of manslaughter know as well. Cool?

Hell  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Nigger is not a word that get's thrown around very frequently by white people except by those who are actually racist or are intentionally use it to cause harm, or by black people themselves who are referring to someone of their own race in a negative light. So it would be out of character for Alec to use that word considering the general vocabulary and conditions of his upbringing. But if he did in fact use that word, it would more likely be seen as racist.

But he didn't. And you can bring up what if situations to try and manipulate "my logic" as you see it, but I prefer to base my reasoning on what actually happened.

So, let me know when you're not comparing involuntary swearing after being assaulted by a paparazzi to the physical act of manslaughter, because clearly hyperbole is something you're susceptible to and it's muddying your message. Cool?

_refugee_  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I purposefully used both a very relevant example, and a hyperbolic example. However, even in simple traffic accidents, we don't live in a society where not intending to do something is considered a valid defense for having actually done it. That point still stands.

Baldwin used a word or word(s) that groups that have historically been discriminated against find inflammatory. Regardless of why he used that word, he still offended those people. You're basically saying "Oh, he hurt these people's feelings, but that's okay because he didn't mean to, and on top of that they're just being sensitive people."

I think that it is up to the marginalized group to determine what is offensive to them, not members of the dominant culture.

    Nigger is not a word that get's thrown around very frequently by white people except by those who are actually racist or are intentionally use it to cause harm

Yeah, but what if Baldwin had just, you know, like grown up in the south and people around him used that word all the time so he was raised to believe it's okay? So he just used it because he was raised always hearing it, and he didn't realize it was a slur?

That doesn't make it okay.

Hell  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

1. We're not talking about traffic incidents. Your point is invalid.

2. If we left it up to margininalized groups to determine what is offensive and what isn't, we run the risk of an even more oppressive society where words are no longer words, but something we can be prosecuted for. Oh wait that is already happening.

That aside, of course the marginalized groups will speak up, and they should. But in this case with Alec Baldwin, even amongst people who identify as LGBT, they are conflicted. Just ask Dan Savage.

3. Again, he didn't say nigger. That was your reach to discredit the semantics of the word cocksucker. But if he did say that word, I'm guessing the reaction would be about the same as what happened to Paula Deen, who was born in the south, and who was not let off the hook. Of course that's not ok.

I think the question here why is this even an issue? Do you know how many racist things I hear every week just walking down the street? Because it came from a celebrity, in a moment of clear frustration he should absolutely be held to the neck for his words? You can't tell me you've never, ever said anything that could be perceived as a slight to a marginalized group, in all your life. The difference is you don't have a camera in your face recording it.

JakobVirgil  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

queen since the 1880's at least.

flagamuffin  ·  2086 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oscar Wilde was such a q*