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ButterflyEffect's comments

Who are the people who worked on a project like this fake school? Do they go home at the end of this thinking they’ve done a good job, do they have families who support their career? How do we have so many people working for an organization like ICE.

ButterflyEffect  ·  22 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Open Thread: Impeachment Hearings

OKAY has ANYBODY been WATCHING the SONDLAND testimony?

Holy shit.

zebra2  ·  22 days ago  ·  link  ·  

am_Unition  ·  22 days ago  ·  link  ·  





scissortail  ·  21 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I listened to much of it, pretty wild stuff. I'll be interested to see who does and does not comply with subpoenas in the coming weeks.

It looks like Giuliani is fucked, to put it mildly.

ButterflyEffect  ·  21 days ago  ·  link  ·  

As somebody who is from NY, couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!

OftenBen  ·  22 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The facts are out.

What do we do with them.

ButterflyEffect  ·  113 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: August 21, 2019

Found a really large banana slug a couple of weeks ago. Look at this thing!

kleinbl00  ·  113 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Natives know non-natives by their fascination with the slugs.

Natives learn at their mothers' teats that slugs are dog poop that moves and eats your garden and should be regarded as such.

To a PNW native, "look at the size of this slug! " is audibly indistinguishable from "look at the size of this turd! "

ButterflyEffect  ·  112 days ago  ·  link  ·  

...I still think it’s a nice slug.

kleinbl00  ·  112 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You can tell the internet that. Just not the locals.

ButterflyEffect  ·  393 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: November 14, 2018

Unlike _ref_, I have take myself off of the dating market. I've had enough of relationships for a while, two very unsuccessful relationships in one year is plenty, thanks. Of course, I've met a trail running girl who seems perfect for me. She's only living here until mid January. Ugh.

_refugee_  ·  393 days ago  ·  link  ·  

OftenBen gave me a lot of encouragement. What with planning to move out of state in about 6 months, part of it feels like it could be a little silly -- the whole dating thing, I mean. But hey...it's about time I tried actually trying, even if it is practice-trying.

ButterflyEffect  ·  393 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Hah, I'm on the other side of that circle. Spent enough time trying this year and gave a much greater understanding of my wants and needs...which is a lot longer conversation but boils down to "no dating unless I meet a mountaineer or trail runner who's my age bracket and single."

ButterflyEffect  ·  435 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: October 3, 2018

Life in Flux. Thinking of taking a twice a week night class for Jan-Apr to get my Lean Six Sigma Black Belt certification, as paid for by my employer. It would definitely be a hit to my social life, but could be a great professional move and is continued learning, which I'm all about.

Meanwhile, I reinjured my ankle during an amazing hike/trail run and am now off running and climbing for at least 21 days. I've decided not to drink until I can comfortably trail run, so it might be a while. I told my girlfriend this, who's immediate reaction was...not what I was hoping for (thinking it's me punishing myself, not understanding why I'm making this decision)...sometimes I don't feel like I'm getting the kind of support I want/need.

WanderingEng  ·  434 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm a casual drinker, but the social pressure to drink versus not drink really bugs me. Deciding to not drink for a night or a month or a lifetime should be no more notable than getting chips instead of fries with a cheeseburger. It's just one little minor thing.

ButterflyEffect  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Everything You Know About Obesity is Wrong

Yeah, so, obesity and overweight increases across all income levels since the 80's. Source.

    Across all adult age groups, current asthma prevalence was significantly higher among adults with obesity compared with those in lower weight categories.


    Less than 5% of adults participate in 30 minutes of physical activity each day;2 only one in three adults receive the recommended amount of physical activity each week.3

    Typical American diets exceed the recommended intake levels or limits in four categories: calories from solid fats and added sugars; refined grains; sodium; and saturated fat.2


These are, undeniably, problems. The article touches upon this: there are socioeconomic factors contributing to obesity. The proliferation of fast food, working multiple jobs, external stressors, lack of availability of parks or outlets for exercising. These are things we as a society should be working to fix, especially the food supply chain.

But. Here's why I don't get into fat acceptance, or whatever you want to call it.

    Obesity-related illness, including chronic disease, disability, and death, is estimated to carry an annual cost of $190.2 billion.17

    Projections estimate that by 2018, obesity will cost the U.S. 21 percent of our total healthcare costs - $344 billion annually.18

It affects per capita spending on healthcare. There are health and financial reasons to tackle this problem. Acceptance is giving up.

kleinbl00  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

There was no aspect of this article that could be construed as fat acceptance. The whole of the article is about finding a method of treating it other than "stop being fat."

HeroicGomez  ·  446 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Painting the subject as criticism being akin to shaming inherently implies that fat acceptance is the suggested correct answer. It's disingenuous to pretend the underlying message is anything else.

kleinbl00  ·  446 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The criticism is shaming. That's the point of the article, that's the argument made for several thousand words, that's the experience much of society faces. More than that, the point of the article is that it's unhelpful, it's devoid of empathy and it's a society-wide problem that vast swaths of society refuse to acknowledge as a problem.

Much like you, right here, are doing.

I'm gonna share a little secret with you. I'm not fat. Not by any standard other than BMI. My belly has not protruded my chest or my waist in twenty five fucking years. But I have been counting calories for fifteen years now, have spent years dealing with bulimia and have a deeply troubled self-image because furries and fat people are the two groups we're still allowed to shame.

And it's fucking bullshit.

This entire fucking page is fucking bullshit because everyone who has never had a weight problem is loudly proclaiming they've never had a weight problem because they're virtuous. Thereby announcing to the rest of us that, as always, we are lesser human beings. And you don't see it that way because you've never been in the outgroup.

HeroicGomez  ·  445 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Feeling shame is always a choice.

kleinbl00  ·  445 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Certainly. Some choices are easy. Some choices are hard. When you spend your life surrounded by a society that defaults to you feeling shame in everything you do and everywhere you go, the choice to not feel shame is an impossibly hard choice to make.

Especially when people like OftenBen will champion you as the causitive force of all that is wrong in America.

You seem to depend heavily on flippancy. I hope for your sake that you can continue in your simple trajectory, unsullied by the complexities the rest of us face.

ButterflyEffect  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    This has always been the great hope of the fat-acceptance movement. (“We’re here, we’re spheres, get used to it” was one of the slogans in the 1990s.)

I got kind of caught up on that and was thinking of some other articles when I wrote that sentance. I largely agree with this article, especially the part about treating it as a societ

    Which brings us to the most hard-wired problem of all: Our shitty attitudes toward fat people.

Which, a lot of the comments here, mine included, kind of support this, don't they?

Tangential - interested in if OftenBen agrees with this quote or not?

    Still, despite the Task Force’s explicit recommendation of “intensive, multicomponent behavioral counseling” for higher-weight patients, the vast majority of insurance companies and state health care programs define this term to mean just a session or two—exactly the superficial approach that years of research says won’t work. “Health plans refuse to treat this as anything other than a personal problem,” says Chris Gallagher, a policy consultant at the Obesity Action Coalition.
kleinbl00  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Which, a lot of the comments here, mine included, kind of support this, don't they?

Yep. Thin people go "I have no problem being thin therefore everyone should have no problem being thin." Fat people disappear into the woodwork because never once, in the history of their lifetimes, has this discussion benefitted them in the slightest. Mostly it serves as a poignant reminder that everyone around them is utterly devoid of empathy.

tacocat  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Fat acceptance is more about not making people feel like shit than normalizing fatness. Sucks you're the only person here who understands that. I don't see this public health concern with any other issue

OftenBen  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Fat acceptance is more about not making people feel like shit than normalizing fatness.

In theory, theory and practice are the same.

In practice, theory and practice are different.

tacocat  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How have the two differed in your life?

OftenBen  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

In practice, wherever I have encountered 'Fat acceptance' I have encountered science denialism.

'Being overweight and sedentary doesn't cause diabetes.'

'Obesity doesn't contribute to heart attack and stroke.'

'You're wheezing because you have asthma, not because you are 400lbs and fat is literally blocking your windpipe.'

As some examples.

I'm all for not being a dick to people.


Science denialism needs to be stamped out with a fucking vengeance. Actions have consequences and lying to (young people) about the consequences of their dietary choices helps exactly nobody.

tacocat  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Where are you encountering it?

OftenBen  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I've dealt with it a few times at work. Usually an obese set of parents who blame the obesity of a child on 'genetics' and not the fact that she is guzzling Fanta from a sippy cup. Thankfully I'm not the doc, but I have been in the room for these conversations.

Also everywhere on the internet.

_refugee_  ·  445 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I’ve witnessed personally obese children raised by obese parents. It’s very clear to see these children become doomed to so much (not just high weight but bullying, poor self esteem, ignorance etc etc) when raised by two people who are obese, don’t plan on losing the weight, and don’t talk about it. I found it incredibly sad. At the same time, i found it disgusting and unconscionable behavior on the side of the parents.

kleinbl00  ·  444 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You have to keep in mind that you're looking at two thinking, feeling adults that have capitulated in their struggle to conform to social norms. I know it's hip to pretend that fat people enjoy sweating when they go up a flight of stairs and having to sprinkle Gold Bond in their crevices to forestall dermal yeast infections but fundamentally we're talking about people who have given up on normalcy. They have, as a consequence, adapted to other coping strategies to live their lives to their own best abilities.

They teach their children these strategies not because their behavior is "disgusting and unconscionable" but because it is the culmination of their life experience. They concluded at some point that their children would live as they do, much to their heartbreak, and so they are propagating the wisdom of the tribe.

Mt sister's kids look like a Gap ad. They're impossibly thin. My own daughter will, if she's lucky, be built like Lucy Lawless. She's five but I already know that I will raise her to be her, not my sister's kids.

Don't make me tell the story of the bamboo skewer.

_refugee_  ·  444 days ago  ·  link  ·  

My assumption is basically that they live like that and raise their children like that because a) they don't know better (about nutrition/eating properly), b) they don't care/don't have the energy to tackle the problem. Some combination of the above.

I'm sure they had a lot of other things going on in their lives too. As someone who doesn't have kids, I feel like the timesuck of having multiple children and raising them "well" in all the other vectors a person might possibly want to raise their children well in - quite reasonably reduces the amount of time and energy a parent can direct towards self-improvement. Or changing what's always worked for them. Or teaching their children an entirely different lifestyle from what the parents know and live. It'd require a re-self-education and then application and re-teaching of that new knowledge to 1, 2, however many children. And even if you can change the lifestyle, the kids already absorbed what life was like before the change for however long that was.

I just felt really bad for the younger kid. who was obese at like 10.

Sure, sometimes people seem to raise perfect kids, but for the most part I think it's impossible. You can raise your kids as best as you can and that's about it. Even just a blind spot in the 'wrong' vector -- any possibly significant vector, which is like almost all of them -- can leave a kid vulnerable or disadvantaged. Guess what! That's being human for ya.

I don't know any adults who are perfect (in my life, anyway). Why expect parents to produce children who excel in every way and are in control of and smart about all their choices, when the parents aren't like that and also no one in society really expects that of them?

kleinbl00  ·  444 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Your a/b is actually an a/b/c; don't know better/don't care/ don't have the energy might all be of a kind at first glance but it's a can't/won't/can't.

It's not a can't/can't/can't.

And that, right there, is the fundamental issue - externally, everyone here is arguing that fat people are fat because they can't or won't change (same diff) while internally, fat people are 100% all the time at "can't" or, more accurately, "have tried fucking everything and who the fuck do you think you are implying my can't is a won't".

And the answer is always some form of "someone calling you fat, fatty, what the fuck are you going to do about it."

Above, you're basically saying "these people can't or won't take care of their children." And while you might get agreement on "can't" (be it grudging, despairing or defiant), you will never ever ever convince someone they won't take care of their kids.

Especially when you're arguing that allowing them to look like their parents is child abuse.

kleinbl00  ·  444 days ago  ·  link  ·  
This comment has been deleted.
tacocat  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How does the only actual instance you mention impact your life? Are fat children harming you? Is scientific ignorance of these parents directory impacting your life?

I'm deeply sympathetic to you for having to read the opinions of idiots on the internet in the second example

OftenBen  ·  445 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    How does the only actual instance you mention impact your life?

It makes my work and the work of every other medical professional vastly more difficult. It causes direct physical harm for some. It causes the patient distress when we have to use giant needles to get venous access. As one example.

The frequent flyers in cardiac wards I described earlier fill up the limited time of specialists with bullshit. Those who add on blatant science denialism add hours of fighting and stress to already packed schedules.

    Are fat children harming you?

I find child abuse distasteful, sue me. I was a fat kid and I get to watch the same cycle repeat itself. I also get riled up when I see someone kick a dog. Does that make me a snowflake? For not being 'tolerant' of alternative parenting styles?

    Is scientific ignorance of these parents directory impacting your life?

There is a non-zero number of cases where obesity related illness has directly led to the death of one or more parents, leaving a child or children orphaned. That's reason enough to oppose science denialism. Stopping kids from growing up fat and sick is reason enough.

tacocat  ·  445 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You already said fat acceptance is not being an asshole. That's on you buddy. This comment I'm responding to is a very detailed defense of a right to be an asshole

OftenBen  ·  445 days ago  ·  link  ·  


Forgot to mention that I slap the candy out of children's hands and cackle while twirling my mustache.

You asked how science-denying 'fat acceptance' affects me. I told you how.

OftenBen  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Bandaid measures won't work. Gallagher is correct when he says that insurance companies are going to redefine 'intensive, multicomponent behavioral counseling' into 2-3 'wellness' sessions or possibly somehow stack it on top of their normal doctors visits.

ButterflyEffect  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

One thing I often think about (interested in what kleinbl00 thinks about this, too) is the future market for OTs/PTs. When I think about general wellness, and insurance driven or, hell, just the way our society works with fitness, I think of a larger need for those types of jobs.

kleinbl00  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's super-good. OTs/PTs are:

- a low-impact degree. Training 'em up is easy and cheap.

- far cheaper to hire than doctors. Any insurance company worth their salt will integrate their care.

- essential for the elderly. What 'boomers want, 'boomers get.

Fundamentally? If it's part of eldercare it's gonna be bangin' business for the next 30 years.

OftenBen  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It seems to be a reasonable next step.

I also think that the authority of the OT/PT is going to expand to eventually include some amount o of nutrition counseling/support, if they aren't already doing that on the sly.

HeroicGomez  ·  446 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Also worth noting that obesity has increased in European and African countries that were once associated with universally thinner and in some cases "healthier" bodies.

It's happening all over the world. The common threads are an increasingly automated, sedentary lifestyle, and an increased consumption of engineered processed foods that lack nutrients while promoting further, compulsive consumption.

tacocat  ·  447 days ago  ·  link  ·  
This comment has been deleted.
ButterflyEffect  ·  477 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: August 22, 2018

Thinking to the next few years and want I want to do. There are a few bigger trails/some circumnavigation of mountains/volcanoes and thru-hikes I'd like to start considering, multi-pitch and alpine climbing, and am in this state of transforming who I was a year and a half ago into who I am today. A lot of that involves becoming a part of, and building/integrating myself into, my own little portion of the running and outdoors community.

Because that's what it is out here, a community. It raises a relationship question, though, that's one of the core issues of all my relationships over the past year or so: Would I rather be in a relationship with somebody who's beside me, or with somebody who's with me. How do you know what works beyond trial and error. Sigh. I'd say I would go on a run to think about this, but the smoke is much too bad for that.

Edit: A less self-centered approach would be to determine how to make time to be with someone that doesn't involve what I'm doing. Really, those are the options. Find someone who's doing similar things, or re-arrange my schedule to make the time and figure out what that looks that to a partner.

ButterflyEffect  ·  554 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: June 6, 2018

Last night was amazing. There's a really large Facebook group (95k members) dedicated to the outdoors which I am a semi active part of. Sometimes socials occur around the Puget Sound, and we finally had a South Sound meet up not far from my house. Every single person I met was fun to talk to and down to earth. A couple of people are willing to help me develop some outdoor skills, met some photographers, a writer, you name it. Drinks were has, karaoke was sang, and then a small group of us bounced to a different bar. It was great being able to put faces and voices to names. The entire time I couldn't help but think that these are my people. Man, was I happy last night.

scissortail  ·  553 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That sounds wonderful. I ought to work on finding a group like that in my area.

ButterflyEffect  ·  637 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: March 14, 2018

What do I want to do with my life, Pubski. Knee is falling apart, again, after the ankle is finally good. Taking a lead climbing course and that's awesome. Trajectory is continuing with weirdness at work. Thinking about Grad School.

kleinbl00  ·  637 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Wrong way to look at it. What do you want to do after grad school? Is there another way to get there? If so, do that. If not, do grad school. The important thing to keep in mind is school is transitional. It's not a destination in and of itself. If it advances your goals, good. If it just accumulates debt while you delay the question, bad.

ButterflyEffect  ·  637 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, there's a couple of options here. I convince my employer to pay for it (they do) which would take probably 2 years of night school for one of the following:

1. MBA (booooooooooo)

2. Data Science (I think I could convince them to go for this)

I guess I don't really know what my goals are at this point. Something conservation, sustainability, or in a smaller food/bev oriented company might be nice. Remember when I was bitching about all this almost three years ago? Feeling like ~3 years is a good amount of time for a first job before considering alternatives.

kleinbl00  ·  637 days ago  ·  link  ·  

With an MBA you could be that smaller company.

I do remember you were here three years ago. I'm not going to tell you to stay put. However, if you're going to jump,

1) look first,

2) jump as far as you can.

ButterflyEffect  ·  666 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: February 14, 2018

Man, so I'm reading through this interview with two of the original employees of Stumptown, and this quote comes out of nowhere:

    Just pay attention to life.

And full disclosure, yeah, I do (still) like Stumptown, they're not the best but they have some really cool origins. But there's something so simple about that.

Just pay attention to life.

It's so simple, it's so vast, and it might be a bullshit quote but I am really into it right now. What else can you do but pay attention to life. I'm still hurt but improving (limited to 20 miles running per week, no more than 5 miles at a time), so that sucks. But I bought a bike, still have a great girlfriend (stoked for our Valentine's Night date), and the year is filling up so-goddamn-fast I had to make a calendar to even attempt to keep of track of it.

It's hard to just pay attention to life.

goobster  ·  666 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I want that on a shirt.

AND a bumper sticker.

ButterflyEffect  ·  672 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: February 7, 2018

Yeah, see, and to WanderingEng too, I never really learned how to maybe healthily compete with myself. It's part of why I like running so much, or going on bigger and longer adventures outdoors, to see what I can do. I don't really accept limitations of my body, and instead try to push through and figure out how to strengthen myself to push the limit further and further from where it's been in the past.

But it also becomes a not being okay to have limits mindset. Anyway, I'm running to the gym tonight.

kleinbl00  ·  672 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

I know. And that's why I refuse to humor you.

The difference between being glum about a physiological limitation or not being glum about a physiological limitation is glumness. Worse, the worse your attitude the worse your hormonal and chemical balance. The more you act like a little bitch, the longer you will be a little bitch, the harder it will be to not be a little bitch... physiologically.

Toughen the fuck up. Not because I think less of you but because your strongest ally in this is yourself and you sell yourself short at the drop of a hat.

ButterflyEffect  ·  672 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Aaaaaaaaaaand this is why Hubski is the community I choose to stick around...

steve  ·  672 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Toughen the fuck up.

lil... this might go on the list of slogans/mottos

or maybe even a new sticker

lil  ·  672 days ago  ·  link  ·  

My morning giggle. Thanks steve. Damn - when are we going to giggle face to face.

Speaking of toughening up, I just wrote a workshop called: Against Entropy: Building Resilience for an Uncertain Future. (New Subtitle: Toughen the fuck up for an uncertain future.)

I have to go do this workshop NOW, in another city. Just leaving the house will toughen me up. SNOW SNOW SNOW.

I have four ways for building resilience (and just added a section subtitle: Toughen the fuck up when times are good so you can get through the crises when times are bad. and mknod I have improv exercises between every section.

So the workshop is for women scientists. My topics include embrace ambiguity - I wonder how that will fly. That's where improv comes in, since you never know what's going to happen in improv (if you're doing it right).

I wrote this: Embrace Ambiguity: The more attached we are to outcomes, the harder it is to recover from setbacks. I made that up. I'm guessing it's true, but I'd need kleinbl00 to confirm.

This workshop will toughen me the fuck up. It's been too easy for me since I recovered from HURRICANE IRMA. Ha ha, there's a hurricane around every corner.

kleinbl00  ·  672 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's hardly original.

steve  ·  672 days ago  ·  link  ·  

life is a remix. you remixed well.

WanderingEng  ·  672 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Personal limits can be pushed. They should be pushed. It isn't about accepting limits, it's about understanding where they are and working to push them. That's where kleinbl00's positive spin on your post, the italicized bit in his first reply, fits. You're already doing the right things, and approaching them more positively can be really good.

It isn't about dejectedly accepting limits, it's being optimistic at understanding them and knowing you can work on pushing them. It doesn't matter if others don't have to do the same. They have their own limits and work to push them, regardless of how that limit compares to yours.

You can push limits.

ButterflyEffect  ·  673 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: February 7, 2018

It's really grating because I'm already going to the gym 2x-3x a week, doing some exercises at home 5x a week, and, you know, have been strength training for over a year now. Because that's my only option. Saying "cry me a fuckin' river" assumes I'm not already or haven't already been trying to work through this shit. I am working hard at this, and already realize I have to work harder than most people to achieve similar results.

nowaypablo  ·  673 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Look kleinbl00 was harsh in diction, but nobody here is actually trying to put you down. Anyone can tell from your post that you're working hard and care about your progress.

ButterflyEffect  ·  777 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: October 25, 2017

I'm just tired. Like, really tired. And have been having this throat thing going on, hope it's something relatively simple like a thyroid disorder. Was going to go on a run today but don't feel capable of it, already overslept today and was late to work and yaaaaaaaaaawn. Something's not quite right.

nowaypablo  ·  777 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I suggest not fighting it when you need a reset. Better to crash at the end of a week or two-week grind, and throw out the sunk cost for a fresh start tomorrow, than spend the whole month hating yourself for not meeting your goals.

Source: me leading up to a 14-hour nap at 6pm last Saturday night.

ButterflyEffect  ·  777 days ago  ·  link  ·  

buuuuuuuuut paaaaaaaaaaaaabs

Forced tapers are the worst.

ButterflyEffect  ·  785 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: October 18, 2017



I've started reading Reclaiming Conversation, and it's making me think a lot. Heading into the read I had already been thinking a lot about my relationship with media and technology, and feeling that it's not that healthy. Last night I made a decision to ditch Facebook with the exception of a page I manage, and to RSVP to events. No more posts, comments, photos, etc. I need to get away from my phone more. We need to get away from our phones more and pay attention to each other. Listing example after example which I have personally contributed to or encountered would be easy, but everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about, so it's pointless. veen what kind of impact did this book have on you?

More Media

What has/what will the recent "Me Too" social media campaign accomplish? What will social media activism ever accomplish?

On Being Selfish

Came to the realization that having goals, intense desires, and devoting your time to accomplishing them is not being selfish. I'm not imposing any of this on anybody else, it's all on myself. If that means a relationship fails, or an interpersonal connection suffers, that is not being selfish. It is a matter of life getting in the way. There's a huge difference there.

elizabeth  ·  784 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    What has/what will the recent "Me Too" social media campaign accomplish?

I believe the point is to showcase how widespread the problem is. That it’s not only limited to slutty Hollywood actresses, but perhaps your sister, classmates and best friends too. Hopefully some people will open their eyes, and say “bro that’s not cool“ next time their buddy cat calls someone?

The point is to start a conversation about respect. I don’t know if many minds will change, but perhaps seeing it as a society-wide problem VS an isolated one will help.

ButterflyEffect  ·  784 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Ah, I think that's where we disagree. While that may be the point, I do not see this actually opening up a conversation. Where is the outlet for a conversation to start? There is a statement, and an awful one at that, but a status and a handful of comments on Facebook makes not a lasting, impactful conversation. The quote veen pulled out of Reclaiming Conversation (and there are many, many other applicable quotes) call into question if we are really making progress, truly conversing with one another. In a few months I think we will see if that is the case or not with the recent "Me Too" campaign.

oyster  ·  784 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's not likely to have an impact on you because you aren't a creepy guy or a woman who has been harassed. I'm not sure if it makes a difference on a bigger scale but I know that it does make a difference to individuals. Sometimes talking about this stuff opens up a conversation off the internet as well. Sometimes being able to share something like that in even the vaguest details is incredibly cathartic especially for women who have struggled to even put words to what happened to them. It's common to jump back and forth between knowing you were assaulted and thinking you're just overreacting because others had it worse. So putting a statement like that out can mean a lot to individual women and it can mean a lot to the woman who resonates with it when the post has some more detail.

ButterflyEffect  ·  784 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't disagree with you. But I also never said that it doesn't make a difference to the individual. I'm talking about actionable discussion or change on a larger scale and society/community wide, which you acknowledged. Two very different things.

oyster  ·  784 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think it starts with individuals though and slowly becomes a more society wide change. Things don't change over night, people devote entire lifetimes to making small changes because it takes a while to really change society.

I mean Australia still hasn't legalized gay marriage. Progress is slow with or without technology. If anything I would say technology, or I guess the access to information it provides helps move things along faster.

ButterflyEffect  ·  784 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well we can definitely say the internet helped push things along for Trump so maybe you're right.

veen  ·  785 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Where to start... I jotted this quote down, which might be a good starting point:

    Digital communication gives us the illusion of companionship, without the demands of friendship; it gives us the illusion of progress, without the demands of action.

The focal point of her book, in my opinion, is that she describes our generation's 'flight from conversation'. She doesn't beat around the bush: we've willfully eroded and replaced valuable, face-to-face conversation in favor of easier, more comfortable but less meaningful digital communication.

She uses a bunch of archetypes to hit her point home, for example when she describes the friend group where most people are glued to their phones most of the time. Or when she describes the 'always-connectedness' of highschoolers. Or when she describes teenagers unwilling to call because that conversation might not be perfect, preferring the comfort of a well-crafted email instead. Or the girl demanding that her parents stop using their phones and just talk to her.

I am so guilty of the behaviours she describes. Obviously not to the extent she describes, but to an extent that I'm ashamed of. Because I bought into the aforementioned illusions of digital communications, the book felt like someone pulled the rug out from under me. As an example, I always loathed and avoided phone calls like a lot of my peers. So even though I've been living out of the house for years now, I've never called my family to just talk about how things are going. That was probably the first thing I drastically changed — I now call my parents at least once a week, usually more.

kleinbl00  ·  785 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If you really wanna feel bad, read Alone Together. I feel that Reclaiming Conversation was her attempt, per her publisher's request, to sketch out a silver lining of the very dark cloud she saw forming over society.

ButterflyEffect  ·  785 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm going to be reading that immediately following this book. I think.

veen  ·  785 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I have read Alone Together a year or two ago but wasn't as impressed with it as I am with this one. If I remember correctly, she made some interesting points about how we interact with technology, e.g. our ability to do the heavy lifting when humanizing AI and robots. What made you feel so bad when reading it?

kleinbl00  ·  785 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The inevitable drive towards a technology that, by her own investigation, we are hopeless to humanize and her steady qualification of her studies over the past 30 years indicating that human empathy has declined in lock-step with our adoption of technology.

ButterflyEffect  ·  799 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: October 4, 2017

My headspace is ambiguous at best these past couple of weeks. Went on a nice, long (13.8 mile) run on Sunday but have been dealing with a hamstring issue for about a month now. Thinking about seeing a PT for this and a couple of other small, nagging issues. It's a constant journey and I'm always meeting a lot of interesting people through running. Starting to give back by volunteering at races, too, which is very rewarding but in a different way. Seeing people succeed or push themselves against themselves for 26.2 miles (or 13.1, or 3.1, etc.) is inspiring especially when you understand what they are feeling.

So, that's mostly good. Likely going to be joining the Board of Directors of a second Non-Profit in November(ish), this one will be running related. It's funny how once you maintain a residence and involvement in the community you start to see the same people in different organizations and capacities, and you start to be a name that pops up in rooms you're not in. The same thing is happening at work. All of these things are good.

There's a lot of emotional difficulties, though. I don't feel capable of having an intimate relationship at this stage of life. After the last breakup I went back to the whole online dating thing for about 3 weeks, deleted all of those accounts (not just disabled, to remove any temptation). I'm slowly trying to remove myself from the dating pool but honestly, it feels like I've been removed for a while now. My emotional availability is just not where it needs to be to be fair to another human being in a romantic capacity. It's nobodies fault, but it has become incredibly easy for me to strike up a conversation with somebody and hell maybe even be friends with them but anything beyond that is a massive struggle. Does anybody still get that kind of fluttering, nervous sensation when they meet somebody or are out on a date? I don't. I haven't in years.

Cumol  ·  798 days ago  ·  link  ·  

And again, I see the parallels.

Tried the online dating thing just to find out that I neither match with anyone on Tinder nor I am weird enough for OKCupid... Also decided to delete everything. I am at the point where I crave a relationship which makes the whole situation much worse as I feel annoyed by the feeling of needing something that bad.

Had to stop running or any other sport apart from Yoga as I am having some weird pain around my shins. This usually comes when I return to doing sports after a break and overdo it...