I got into an argument on the Internet a couple days ago. It really is a losing battle - I have no doubt now that many people don't interact with the real world.

I grew up before the Internet; I've been online since before the ".com" ".net" and ".org"domains existed. And when I hear people complain about the state of discourse on the Internet it drives home something about how I grew up. Because you are exactly correct that the Internet sucks for conversation and debate. To explain it, I have to take you back to the dark ages.

Where I grew up "talk shit, get hit" was a real thing. We did not call it that back then, I don't think the reality of what we did even had a name. It just was. If a friend said something off kilter, a few knuckles to the chest and arms would result in a polite discussion and a fair exchange of ideas... and a few bruises along the way. If someone not a friend started stalking smack about you and the people you hung out with, well, we could not let that stand at all. So you and a few of your buddies would find the offender and have a nice civil discussion on personal etiquette and how to properly behave in public. Sometimes, these 'discussions' would involve 20-30 people. Sometimes, these debating societies would involve baseball bats, plastic pipe and thrown objects.

Every hear the expression "beat the shit out of you?" Yea, that happens. Hit someone in the sides or stomach hard enough and they lose bowel control. Fucking hilarious when the other guy shits himself, not so much when it is you with the brown trousers.

The thing about these fights, however, is even though we were a bunch of stupid cocky teenagers, there were rules. AND YOU OBEYED THE RULES OR ELSE. If you have a beef with someone, you and the other person figure it out. If you drag some muscle into the argument, don't whine if I bring an army and call you a pussy for not standing up for yourself. Families were off limits, no matter what. You don't lay a beat down on someone's brother or cousin if your beef is with him. Jobs and employment were a total off limits. You start shit at my job, you will get beaten down and I will bring an army with me, and nobody will come to your aid. And don't mess up someone's face unless they break the rules of the fight. If you show up with black eyes and a broken nose, everyone knows you did something to deserve it. That or you suck at fighting and you run your mouth too much which falls into the "you deserved it" territory (this was me as a teen until I got bigger and learned to dodge).

From the nostalgia goggles, it was a bit of fun, and there was some camaraderie building. But as an adult, if my kids acted the way I did, I'd freak the hell out. Many of our parents did; some of our parents were shit human beings who used their kids to fight a proxy war. Life is not all that simple for some people growing up. I realize I'm sounding like something out of "Lord of the Flies" or something but the reality is that having an argument face to face while 20+ people circle around you waiting for the signal to throw-down teaches you conflict resolution in a way that the Internet will never, ever, be able. I've had fights where we were beating each other down then suddenly look at each other and have this look like "dude, why are we doing this again?" and can go back to whatever task had been interrupted. But no matter what the outcome of the fight, there WAS an outcome, a resolution and a change in the pecking order. We were boys, it was expected that we would fight a little bit as long as it did not get out of control (or we hid it from our parents so our dads did not beat the shit out of us later for allowing a fight to get that bad).

Interestingly, the only thing that would unite us as a group was when the cops came investigating "reports of fighting" or we helped track the cops who liked to beat the living hell out of the filthy Irish kids. I've had conversations with cops explaining that. no I've not been fighting sir, nope not at all, with a crooked nose and a fading shiner. I' not sure what that adds to my point, but I still think it's funny.

This may sound like I'm advocating fist fights. No, oh god no. A fist to the face sucks. A blunt object to the solar plexus is even worse and screws you up for a week if you are strong and lucky. I have a broken nose, a broken cheek bone and a leg that aches when the weather changes due to this shit. But the one thing I can say about these fights? Every single one was honest. You knew were you stood before, during and after. If you were there with friends, they hopefully pulled you out before things went too far. After the fight there was a resolution and the argument was over. No Internet slap fight is honest in the same way. I used to be heavy into the online atheist community and would go out and pick fights with Evangelicals. I stopped when I realized that there was no purpose to these fights, no resolution, no reason for them other than to inflate my ego. Nothing keeps your ego in check like a fist to the shoulder blade and you cannot get that experience behind a keyboard.

One of the things I enjoy about Hubski is that this is not the correct type of forum for the rabid shit-stirring Evangelical types.. of any stripe. You either come here to have a discussion or else you end up screaming into the great bit bucket as more and more people get sick of your shit and block you. It can be rough reading opinions you think you hate, or hearing people defend things you aggressively disagree with or stepping back from the computer and drinking a nice cup of coffee before finding your zen and then deciding to reply or not. There are people on this site that are the exact polar opposite to me in my political views, but they are still interesting people who have interesting perspectives on life that I don't share. That does not make them any worse a person than I am, it just makes them different. And the thing that gets lost in all the shit-slinging is that talking to people with different ideas, philosophies, politics, life outlooks etc makes you a better person. Listening to the opposition forces you to defend your ideas, come to an understanding of why people think different than you do and either soften your positions or at least teach you how to better defend what you believe. When I was able to work and associate with people different than myself and those differences became trivial to the person as a whole, where the character, honesty and decency mattered more than any of their beliefs, that is when I knew I was an adult who had finally "grown up." I realize it sucks because you want to argue and defend your world view, and when people shit on your life it pisses you off. I realize that, I've been there, and I still struggle with that battle even now as it is hard for me to write things without a rush of emotionally charged words behind what I say (and I edited this post several times to make it more neutral, I hope). The only thing I can do for you is to have you look at how us old farts grew up and be better than us moving forward. And Hubski is a good place to hang out to make that happen.

by: francopoli

badged by
recent badges

Dr. Seuss also grew up six human generations ago. Back when gay people were legally not-people and killed. Back when interracial marriage was illegal. Back when a black man could be lynched on the suspicion he was out of line. Back when the most distrusted group in the non-south were Catholics. Back when there was no food safety, no environmental protections, rampant poverty, and no public education.

Hell if we are going to do this to literature then there is just about EVERY book written more than a hundred years ago that ends up in the fire. Huck Finn (racism, bigotry). The Three Musketeers (vigilante justice). Romeo and Juliet (pedophilia). Lolita (yikes). Moby Dick (anti environment, no female characters, violence, racism). Frankenstein is a disturbing book about grave robbing and killing people that are different. Everything Steinbeck wrote. Hell, has anyone actually sat down and read the Bible? (hint, we call them atheists.) Name a classic story and we can all be shocked on our twitter feeds about how terrible said book is. We can go on and on and on and on. Or, and here is a radical idea, we teach these books. We encourage people to read them. And then we encourage discussions on how we have moved forward and no longer murder people left and right for being with the people they love. How justice should be as an ideal to strive for. How racist caricatures lead to wars where millions of people died. We learn from the past, get better, move forward or we kill our society. And part of that learning is reading the classics and seeing how far we have come and how far we still need to go.

There is the best take down in the last five years. Debate me. Also, fuck this timeline.

francopoli  ·  link  ·  parent  ·  post: Space and Space Launch Updates

The problem is not politics, its physics. The Apollo Program was sent into space on a 50 story building made with some of the most advanced metals yet created then filled with high explosives. All that to get about 60-70 tons into space; the "payload" ie the people and the return capsule, was under 2500 pounds when all was said and done. The rocket equation is a bitch that will be obeyed no matter what you want to do. As long as we are using chemical rockets, we are bound to the limits of fuel and engine efficiency. No manner of cash will change the laws of nature. The only way to play with the rocket equation, in a chemical rocket, is to burn lightweight fuel, very hot, and kick it out the back as fast as possible.

The Falcon Heavy will have a max, realistic, payload of 80 metric Tons, limited by the size of the fairing (the part on the nose) and will be closer to 60-70 tons when it starts lofting payloads. these numbers are to low earth orbit, ie where the space station is. To go to the moon, cut the weight in half as the other half of the payload is the fuel to go to the moon. To land? Cut in half again to get a guess on usable payload numbers. The BFR is going to be a massive metal tube full of fuel, with the volume of a 60 story skyscraper, and it is looking, realistically, like a max weight into space of 110-120 tons. (FYI, Musk is saying 300tons to Low earth Orbit and the guys I follow that build working space hardware and engines are all doubting this.) The main benefit is that the rocket is going to be reusable which drops the price per pound to space to something that makes a real space-based economy viable.

To put this in perspective, the Shuttle weighed 99 tons empty. It had a payload of 50-60 tons. It used the most advanced, most efficient engines ever built; they were using hydrogen, as hot as you can get it, sending the exhaust out as fast as it could possible go, and not explode the engines or melt them. Then you had to add in the biggest solid rocket motors ever made JUST TO GET THE THING MOVING. The Solid rocket boosters provided some 75% of the oomph to get the shuttle to orbit. Then you had to deal with the fun and engineering of dealing with hydrogen. Short answer? Liquid Hydrogen is shit to deal with. It seeps into whatever metal you make its container out of, the tanks cannot be reused (unless there has been a breakthrough I am not aware of) and the stuff is so light that you need massive tanks to hold it.

The only way to get more efficiency is to use ion engines, but the thrust is so light you will never get off the ground. Once in space? nothing right now is better. On the ground? Burn some kind of fuel in an engine is the only game in town. If all you need is a gentile nudge and have a lot of time, the efficiency of an ion engine is some factor of 100 better than chemical rockets. The total "delta V" aka change in speed of the Dawn mission, for example, was in the order of 10 kilometers per second which is just not possible with the limits of the current tech.

The modern next-gen rockets are all going to use super chilled, densified liquid methane, which has its own issues. Because methane is much denser than H2 you get more actual hydrogen in a volume, the molecules don't imbrittle your tanks and you can reuse the tanks, piping etc. LCH4 is also much warmer that H2 so you need less energy, insulation etc to handle it. Oh and you can use solar energy on places like Mars to make Methane and Oxygen out of the air and dirt. One tank design was using liquid oxygen pipes as the cooling for the liquid methane, which helps if you want redundant systems to reduce weight. That big tank on the Shuttle Stack? Almost all Hydrogen storage That little, tiny tank on top is the LOX. The problem with methane is that darn carbon atom. CH4 and O2 make water and CO2... if the engine is not hot enough and engineered well enough. If the engine is not engineered correctly, you get a carbon soot covering your impellers, turbines and combustion chambers instead of that CO2 and that causes all kinds of issues. Most of these are being solved now as the main rocket fuel for, say SpaceX, is avionic kerosene which is why the exhaust looks "sooty" on the launch videos. They traded some of the chemical efficiency of the engine for reliability and lower cost. With Methane, from what I have read in the past, the same tricks to prevent soot in the engine won't work because Methane needs higher temperatures and tighter tolerances, and it is harder to use the fuel-rich mixture they currently use to cool the engines and parts.

The Sea Dragon is the largest rocket that I am aware of that had actual design work done on it outside of science fiction. The sound from the rocket was such that everything within 50 miles of the engine bell would be shook to dead or deafened. That rocket had a max payload of 500 tons, on paper-take about 75% of that for the real value. Then there is the cost to pound and do we really need to send a payload that large into orbit any more?

The short answer to your question? 100 tons usable cargo to orbit reliably is doable and a realistic goal; if cash is thrown at the problem, they can make the rockets cheap and reusable reducing the price per kg to orbit. Any more than that is limited by chemistry, physics, and the politics of what you need to launch such a large rocket.

    I'm sure the state is full of lovely people.

Sure, they live in Louisville and Lexington. And Bowling Green, maybe. This is a state that voted for Cheeto 62/33 and keeps McConnell employed.

    I've even stopped buying bourbon.

So have the Chinese and Europeans. And the fuckwits here still vote R at the end of the day.

This is a state that elected a Republican troll with a punch-able face who ran ads decrying the lack of patriotism of a real, honest to USA, war hero and badass. In the precinct I worked there were 460ish residences, 18 of those were registered Democrats. I worked with two other people in a place no other people went this cycle to knock on doors. My gal got 49/49 in that one area. But when the Dems won't fight for every vote (we still miss you, Howard Dean) you lose elections.

We can sit here and blame Fox news, coal miners, opiods etc but at some point we have to acknowledge that these people are adults and need to have consequences for their actions. Oh, you just voted someone who wants to gut government spending? LOL fuck your check. As a human being it would suck, but as an American, what I think needs to happen is 2-3 million people in this state need to lose their SSI and Medicare for a few months and suffer for their fuckup and pay the consequences of their voting. All of these rural Republicans, EVERY FUCKING ONE OF THEM, exists because the Blue districts generate all the tax money. California sends money to Kentucky, Louisville sends money to people who vote to fuck over the "Big City Liberals." And all these red areas do nothing but consume tax revenue. We have a group in the statehouse that are sarcastically called the 'Fuck Louisville" Caucus. If there is a away to screw over the cities, they will find it even if it means cutting their own funding. These are the same people who decry spending on welfare while they cash the same fucking checks, only we call them farm subsidies and rural economic development. I think I've gone on a rant here before, but the second biggest welfare queens in the USA are rural farmers, the first are energy companies. And boy, do we have both here. Add in Boomer entitlement and you have a shitty toxic mix of morons.

I'm too much of a bleeding heart to turn off my empathy completely, but I'm getting close. McConnell is not the target (even if he is a giant cunt), all he is at the end of the day is a symptom of the real issue. It's the 62% that keep voting for him that you need to whisper "no" towards. I kinda wish the NorthEast and the West Coast would tell middle America to go fuck itself, but we know that won't happen. The good news is that the median age in these regressive places is 65 and all these fuckers are fat and unhealthy and are dying off. The bad news is that they are not dying fast enough. The good news is that with the end of the Obama EPA rules, the process of killing them off is getting a shot in the arm. This and the push to get younger people into the voting booth and we can start to fix this shit. I just hope I can stay upright on top of the dirt long enough to watch it happen.

    I don't know Kentucky politics. I know the governor and the legislature don't have to be in lock step.

Take all your previous posts about how fucked Rural America is. Throw in your hate of the coal country idiots. Add in a few fanatic religious sects. Then give all those people a coalition and the keys to the state government. The whole platform is fuck poor people and do everything you can to fuck over the two Blue-Voting Cities (The same two cities that are 2/3 the state economy).

Kentucky is everything wrong with what is going on at a national level, only with the crazy cranked up to RONPAUL2008 levels. Only the crazy here wins because everything is shit, everything is terrible and the only option left is to fuck it up for everyone else while you laugh as it all burns down.