But all 5 people agree that there was an accident, which seems to indicate a pretty strong correlation with reality. It might not be the opposite of no relation to reality, more like 160 degrees instead of 180 degrees in the opposite direction. To what degree do you thing perception and reality have no relation? Seems like you are taking me to task for opposing an absolutist statement that you yourself pretty quckily gave ground on.

While the senses are fallible, our ability to discriminate between two different things with remarkable agreement seems to indicate that perception and reality are closely entwined.

When you move from discrimination between two things to cause and effect the gap grows. A great portion of this gap can be reduced by investigation and education.

We are not omnipotent but we will try and create a plausible explanation for why things happen. Many things that we pretend are objective are very subjective. it's an area where perception and reality must often part ways, but to say they have no relation is silly.

Here you're creating an absolute where one may not have existed in the earlier piece. Being able to watch one's thoughts doesn't mean that people have NO control over their thoughts. But it also doesn't mean they have 100% control over their thoughts.

I really have no idea what you are trying to say in relation to what I said. His shtick was that you are not your thoughts. I've heard this hippy dribble seeping out all over the place. I've head it from the goofy Scientologist, I've heard it from that greasy snake oil salesmen man Tolle. It a great line if you want brain wash someone into opening their wallet, it's not a great way to take control of your own life on terms of you're own choosing. I've dabbled with the cultist and substituting a world view of subtle self victimization with salvation coming in the form of giving up ownership of your critical facilities is usually front in center if you take a look behind the curtains.

I am my hands, they are within the ven diagram of me. I'm accountable for their good behavior and health an maintenance. I'm more than my hands but I'm certainly not not my hands. My hands might screw me with their clumsiness or betray my nervousness, sometimes they might even be too weak for the task which I am asking them to perform, but they are my hands. Same damn thing with my brain. I do my best to nudge it toward flexibility, objectivity and just compassion but I sometimes fail. It's still my brain.

Not being your thoughts must be great self help advice, it's flies off the shelf. Seems like a bunch of mystic double talk self victimization rationalizing to me. Comforting but I suspect that it's of dubious practical value.

If I had to occupy a goofy metaphysical niche id plant myself in the Krishnamurti camp. Work hard to understand yourself, gain self control and knowledge by trying to understand all things in the world an their relation to yourself. He was diametrically opposed to the don't think and it's not your brain crowd. If I've said anything absolutist it's only in that I totally oppose the "you are not you mind, you are not your thoughts," absolutist.

To live is to find out for yourself what is true, and you can do this only when there is freedom, when there is continuous revolution inwardly, within yourself.

Jiddu Krishnamurti