18 years ago today I left home to serve as a missionary for the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints. 1 year ago I was called to serve as a bishop of my local congregation. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm a project manager at a technology company. and I'm all out of hours in the day. my hubski life has suffered lately.
18 years ago I was 19 years old. I spent two years in Montana talking to people about God.
1 year ago I was 36. I have spent the last year in Denver helping people in my congregation and neighborhood.
huh.
I feel a bit naked posting this. Most of my friends are agnostic or atheist. I get the feeling many people on hubski are similarly inclined. I find myself wondering how I can believe something that seems so illogical. I mean, you and I live in the same secular world. Why should I believe in God? More to the point, why do I give everything I have to my family and my church? why do I ask why? I'm just typing.
Welp - here's your chance. Ever wanted to ask a mormon a question? I might ignore you if you act like a prick.
As a general rule I avoid talking religion, especially with friends. It always seems to lead to senseless arguments where no one changes their minds, no enlightenment occurs and feelings get hurt. My sum knowledge of Mormonism comes from the Southpark episode "All About Mormons," season 7 episode 12. I very much like the ending when the kids (whose name is 'Glen', not uncoincidentally I'm sure) says, "Maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life and a great family and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith did make it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even if people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it." (He then finishes with: "All I wanted to do was be your friend, Stan, but you wanted to be so high and mighty that you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls." Classic!) I found Glen's words resonated well with my feelings about religion. If you get something out of it and it's makes your life better, then stick with it. If instead it makes you bitter and fearful and dislike others, then you should shop around for another set of beliefs. There's plenty out there, you don't need to stick with what you're handed. My problem with many religious people is that I feel I get judged as soon as they discover I'm an athiest. I become less in their eyes or the object of a salvation effort, and friendships can become very difficult. It makes me sad that religion divides me from others so. I should add that I've never felt that way around you Steve. I'm also quite proud to learn you've become a bishop. That's awesome. And I like the idea that I have a good friend who's a bishop. I guess I don't have a question for this 'Ask a Mormon' session, but I'd love to get your reaction to the Southpark episode I cited above. Maybe we can yammer about it at the next Infinity conference.
I found Glen's words resonated well with my feelings about religion. If you get something out of it and it's makes your life better, then stick with it. If instead it makes you bitter and fearful and dislike others, then you should shop around for another set of beliefs. There's plenty out there, you don't need to stick with what you're handed.
-Well said Mike, I feel similarly.
It's funny how similar our attitudes are about religion, mike... I'd be happy to yammer about it if we get the chance. I WILL SAVE YOUR SOULZ! ALL UR SOULZ ARE BELONG TO US! cuz you know... I'm crazy evangelistic like that. That south park episode is... how do I describe it... factually accurate, but disingenuously presented? I don't know if that makes sense. I have never been a huge SP fan, but from the 20 or episodes I've seen, that seems to be their MO. pry back the layers on any organization person and make jokes about it.
I am impressed Maybe you could speak on the united order and Mormon communalism. Ever since reading American Religion by Harold Bloom I have had a fondness for Mr. Smith and his flock. But I have been confused about the shift from Communism to Randian Objectivism. I realize it has been 100 years but it must leave some marks on the Mormon people.
Great question. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I'll shoot from the hip. I'd be hesitant to call it communism, or even socialism. There is a vast difference between those political ideologies and the religious principle we call the Law of Consecration (united order). It is basically a commitment members make acknowledging that everything they have comes from God, and that if needed, the member would give everything they have to the church for the building up of the kingdom. It has been used a few times in church history, but typically in times of severe need. Currently, members are asked to pay a tithe (10%) of their increase. In addition to this, they fast (no food or water) one day each month and donate the funds that would have been spent on that food and donate that as a "fast offering" to the church. These funds are used in different ways. Tithing pays for things like buildings, maintenance, fleet vehicles, printed materials, activities, etcetera. The Fast Offerings are used 100% for helping the needy. There are no paid clergy in the church at any level, so there is zero overhead. I think that Randian Objectivism might be a bit of a stretch. While there are clearly some Randites in the flock, I think the vast majority of mormons just believe in hard work. They work hard, earn a living and don't like a government encroaching on their income with higher taxes. They give their time and money to create a safety net with little to no waste. It's hard to see the government with huge waste. You'll have a hard time finding a group of people more patriotic at their core. All this despite a touchy relationship with the government at times (in the state of Missouri you could have killed me for being a mormon up until 1976). I don't know if I really answered your questions well, not being an expert in church history, nor in Rand. I think perhaps the most important thing to realize is that members of this church are... just that: members of a church. It's a religion, not a political party. You'll find democrats, republicans, communists, socialists, feminists, and probably almost any other *ist you can think of. Even within my family you'll run the gamut on social/political issues. The current 12 apostles don't see eye to eye on every issue. This church is made up of all kinds of people.
Good to hear it. I read American Religion got excited. Then every Mormon I met was a super right wing Rabid anti-communist. In the public eye you have folks like Glenn Beck making y'all look crazy. It's weird cuz Brigham Young's Utah had a centrally planned economy.
I met Marie once she is kinda hot. What did she do to be ashamed of? The is might have turned into as was by now. :(
hahahah... I was actually just kidding about good ol' Marie. I was replying from my phone during a meeting at work and she was the first mormon celebrity to come to mind. I took her niece out on a date in college once... the Osmonds generate good looking progeny. Or maybe it's because she's a little bit country...
Went out with an Osmond good on yah. I will maintain my watch on you. Harry Reid and Glenn Beck in the same religion.
JFK and Paul Ryan are the same religion, too! I find in life that people ascribe a lot of their moral beliefs and ways of life to their faith or lack of faith, but in the end some people are jerks and some people are awesome, end of story. This seems to be completely independent of creed or affiliation. Edit: But is Glen Beck really even a Mormon? Isn't he part of some offshoot sect started by an End-of-Times type nut? I think the man's name is Skousen, or something similar.
Is Cleon Skousen sill around that guy was too nucking futs for the John Birchers. Y'all let him stay around?
Is that were you live Utah? I have visited several times for the film festival and for the parks in the southern part of the state. I like it not a small bit.
Do you ski or snowboard? I haven't traveled the world, but I have to say, nothing else I've ever seen compares to Utah snow. When you measure packed power and fresh powder in feet instead of inches, you know it's good... My one complaint about Utah (besides all the mormons) is the way they make their milkshakes. I know it sounds trivial (I am a bit of a milkshake connoisseur.) But when I lived there for a couple of years, it was torture. I'm a purist. A milkshake should be drunk through a straw. In Utah, they make everything thick... like a blizzard at Dairy Queen. And don't get me wrong, I love a good blizzard. But when I want a chocolate malt, I want to be able to drink it through a straw. And when you ask for the shake a little thinner, so you can drink it through the straw - the kid behind the counter looks at you like you just ordered a stake that could be eaten with a spoon. It's a cross between confusion and disgust.
I do enjoy utah scones and Navajo tacos is there still that frybread place in Salt Lake?
It is a good argument that you are not mindless drones.
Crazy isn't it, Steve? I'll try not to act like a prick here. I've probably been one to you at some point in the past. I tend to feel that you are asking normal questions. I say this since I was diagnosed with brain cancer last April. I find myself asking many similar questions (without the me being Mormon or being involved in a church) and I'm tending to think that you should believe in something that helps you and those around you the most. Make a "t-chart" with the positives and negatives of the choice you want to make and go from there or something. Pick the one that offers the most positives, I guess.
For me personally, one of beliefs that I have been hanging on to the most, and is helping me the most is, "I am punching cancer in the dick". It was something passed on to me from my brother. A Mormon friend of his, named Steve, told him to tell me to do this. It sounds better than all other alternatives and plan to do this for the rest of my days. It's actually fun at times. Thanks Steve. Take care. Jeff
I always respected you as a person Steve. Even though we haven't seen each other more then 2-3 times in the last 17 or so years I suspect that you grew up to be the kind of man that you seemed to be pointing towards becoming in your youth. You never seemed judgmental, nor did it seem like you weren't seeing others for who they were. You dipped your toe into a different life enough to have an idea about what life outside the church might be like (at least what life would be like for a young man). Seems like you aren't having a crises of faith as much as you are asking honest questions that any rational person should ask themselves from time to time. I always figured that there were things you valued about the Mormon religion and the way it interlaced with your family life that kept you in. Maybe it does just come down to faith, but I think if you didn't find value in the lifestyle you would lose your faith. I suspect that you are the kind of person that would find something to have faith in if you left the Mormon church. The fact that you have had so many close relationships with us heathens always impresses me. The way you conducted yourself with good natured fun and respect toward all people made your faith a non-issue for me. You are the least dogmatic, preachy, judgmental member of a fundamentalist church I have even known. I think the core of who you are is greater then your religious affiliation. You would be an interesting, friendly, kind, inquiring person no matter what way or walk of life you decided to take.
Thanks for the kind words cgod. You're right. No real crisis of faith here. Just musing about life on the anniversary of a big day many years ago. Although after looking back at what I typed, I could see how it might be read that way. Looking forward to seeing you next month.
I also can't reconcile how God can be all knowing and claims we have free will. If I have free will but God already knows what I'm going to do, then I was created to do it. There's no "free will" unless God once and a while goes "Damn, I didn't see that coming". I can't reconcile these things but I do think the lessons that Christ gave us are pretty amazing and as Jefferson famously said, "are as distinguishable as diamonds in a dungheap". I've not met you (yet) steve, but I would love to talk religion with you someday. Not to debate, not to prosthelytize but just to discuss. There's no need to debate, it always comes down to "I have faith and you don't". It can't be discussed on the plain of logic. Don't work too hard steve-o.I find myself wondering how I can believe something that seems so illogical.
This is the part that gets me too. I wasn't even raised a christian, I started going to church voluntarily as an adult because I felt a sort of "calling" towards Christ. What I've come to realize is that His teachings still call to me in a philosophical "code" sort of way but religion and worship do not call to me what so ever. I can't reconcile how a God would be so insecure as to need me to worship it, it just seems petty to me. Why make us broken, constantly tempt us and then punish us when we don't fix ourselves? Seems like a pretty cruel game imo.
I couldn't agree more, and I love the discussion. I suppose that's why I threw this out there. I don't like to fight, it's just not worth it. But I do love the pondering, the analysis, and the sharing of ideas. I'm nothing special, but I thought if I "came out" on hubski about being a mormon clergyman it might spark some discussion, especially given the situation in the GOP. it's gonna be fun when we do meet - too many good hubski topics, and I still owe you a drink at the whiskey bar.I've not met you (yet) steve, but I would love to talk religion with you someday. Not to debate, not to prosthelytize but just to discuss. There's no need to debate, it always comes down to "I have faith and you don't". It can't be discussed on the plain of logic.
My entire family will attest to the fact that I have a horrendous memory, but if there is one thing I don't forget... it's a promised drink. "Clergyman"... wow, that just sounds so "adult". I'm interested to see what is made of Romney's faith during the campaign. It was such a huge part of the Obama/McCain election. We'll see. I'd be glad if it wasn't brought up at all frankly.