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Ask Hubski: Does God's omniscience preclude free will?

How do people that have faith in an all knowing God claim to have free will? I can't reconcile the two. This is an honest question that I am genuinely curious to know the justifications for. This should be a safe environment for this discussion.


by khaaan 345 days ago  ·  link
no such thing as God and free will is determined by primitive survival instincts your subconscious makes decisions before you do making you believe you made the choice.
by thenewgreen 345 days ago  ·  link
Am I not my subconscious too?
by thenewgreen 345 days ago  ·  link
Great link Khaaan, thanks. Could it be that a benign decision like hitting a button with your right or left hand are so route that they relegated to such things while more complex decisions still require our internal deliberation?
by khaaan 344 days ago  ·  link
i imagine it's a two way process. But then when you break down your life what are all your choices about? in the end you either get short term gain or long term gain from them. Do i eat this or that? Do i go to college or get a job now? do i have sex with this person or that person? all choices boil down to instinctive survival patterns.

More abstract choices you could argue are playing out a pattern ie What shall i watch on TV is just an echo of choice but we perceive it as some kind of proof of existence. in reality we are no more than plants robots if you like.

but that doesn't explain rockets to the moon but i think that is more a social consciousness or part of the economic subconscious.

i have no scientific evidence myself to back any of this up

by thenewgreen 344 days ago  ·  link
    all choices boil down to instinctive survival patterns.
I don't think this is true, if it were then why would the answer to your question "Do I eat this or that" often end up with someone eating horrible food that is detrimental to their survival? We are no longer a species that deals primarily with survival, we've found ways to be able to take such things for granted. We are a society whose primary decisions revolve around want and not necessity. I think this is a substantial differentiator between us and plant robots. -Which by the way, I don't think is literally all that far off. Maybe Cyborg Insects first.
by mk 344 days ago  ·  link
Whenever you talk about absolute powers, you run into these logical inconsistencies. i.e. Can God make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?

IMHO logical consistency is not a requisite for religious faith. Some might even argue that belief in spite of logic is an expression of faith. Personally, I haven't been able to make that leap, but I've come to believe that faith is orthogonal to these kinds of exercises; and as long as I am not required to interpret it, it's ok by me.

by 45usp 343 days ago  ·  link
I've adopted the viewpoint that differentiates between 'faith' and 'reasonable expectation.' Reasonable expectations are based on evidence. Faith is the belief that something happens or will happen despite the lack of evidence or the presence of evidence to the contrary. (I can't claim this my own original thinking. I think I've heard Neil deGrasse Tyson use these terms, but I honestly don't know if he established the dichotomy so cleanly himself or adopted it from another source.) I like this differentiation because it makes it easy to sort out things like ghost stories, good luck charms, portents and so forth.

As to the original question, I was just thinking about this topic the other day because of something someone said to me. I found myself with a lot of leftover building supplies after a project, so I gave it to an acquaintance. I was helping him load the stuff, and in conversation he said, "We've been so fortunate. God has blessed us!" He attributed my kindness to his deity, connoting within his belief system that I didn't make the choice on my own to give the stuff away and to give it to him specifically. Well, I absolutely did make that choice. I debated whether it would be quickest and easiest to take it to the dump or give it to Habitat or what. The notion that I was predestined to make the choice to give it to this one specific person due to some interference by God is offensive to me, honestly. I guess this is an example of omnipotence (all powerful) instead of omniscience (knowing all) but in a lot of cases, it's a package deal.

by thenewgreen 343 days ago  ·  link
Whenever I hear someone tell someone else that they are "lucky" in regards to an accomplishment I have a similar reaction. Most people create their own luck. Have a great career that you enjoy? Chances are you worked really hard to obtain it. Have well behaved children? That didn't just manifest on its own.

When I was younger I was working at a restaurant in Ann Arbor and our head bartender was going to Ghana to study architecture for a summer. One of the regulars of the restaurant came in and asked where the bartender was? I said, Ghana and he said how great it was and I replied, "Yeah, he's so lucky". The guest stopped my in my tracks and said to me while looking intently at me "you know, you create your own luck in life". -That was a transformative moment for me.

Do we have free will? Hell yes, and I use it and I sure as hell don't wait for divine intervention. By the way, very nice of you to help out your acquaintance. Welcome to Hubski.

by 45usp 343 days ago  ·  link
They say luck is when preparation meets opportunity. I like that.
by thenewgreen 343 days ago  ·  link
I like that too, thanks.
by winston 343 days ago  ·  link
Playing devils advocate: Some of faith would say that it is a "feeling" or an "inclination" that provides this "proof" or "evidence". This is something that cannot be proven but is described as being very "real" to those that claim it. Can a "feeling" count as evidence?
by 45usp 343 days ago  ·  link
No. Feelings are wildly inconsistent from one person to another, and within one person from one moment to the next. Beyond that, there are scientific explanations for feelings (emotional responses) and those explanations are themselves rooted in evidence and experimentation. Witness something like Jesus Camp, where the attendees swear on their lives that they felt God's touch; when in reality those transformative experiences were fully engineered by the camp organizers.
by winston 341 days ago  ·  link
Jesus camp sounds like a terrifying place imho. You are right, emotional responses can be scientifically explained. Thank you for the response.
by thenewgreen 344 days ago  ·  link
I've asked the question of several devout christians and the answer I get essentially boils down to "God is bigger than that which we can comprehend". Seems an enormous cop-out but as you state, "logical consistency is not a requisite for religious faith".


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