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Great Books that aren't all that great.

by caio · #literature
posted 673 days ago · shared by: 7
Writers, editors and critics share their thoughts on great pieces of canonical literature that, frankly, just aren't all that. James Joyce, particularly, shows up a lot.

I especially like Elif Batuman's commentary:

"My view is that the right book has to reach you at the right time, and no person can be reached by every book. Literature is supposed to be beautiful and/or necessary—so if at a given time you don't either enjoy or need a certain book, then you should read something else, and not feel guilty about it."

I've tried four times now to read Guimarães Rosa 'chef œuvre' "The Devil to Pay in the Backlands". Didn't get past page 180. The book has 600. Perhaps some other time.



by cgod 671 days ago  ·  link
So I been thinking about this post a lot.

alpha0's comment touches on one of the main threads I have been considering. The Bible and Shakespeare are types of literature that impart cultural literacy. You can't help but notice after you have read a handful of Greek plays references to those plays which well educated/intelligent people make to help illustrate all manner of situations. All of a sudden you get the joke and feel richer for it intelectualy and regret the time spent in ignorant darkness. What seemed before to be intellectual snobbery is realized to be a pretty insightful way to compare one thing to another for the sake of understanding.

Cultural literacy is pretty powerful stuff, unlike so many things, you don't realize what you have till you get it, and it can't be taken away. Been making my own list (haha, after my attack on lists) of books that deliver cultural literacy.

Proposed reading list: The Bible (pretty much any holy books will deliver some pervasive cultural understanding). Major Shakespearean Tragedies Handful of Greek plays Plato's Republic The Iliad and Odyssey Atlas Shrugged Cannery Row The Jungle Some kind of summery of Wealth of Nations and the Communist Manifesto

I have some odd books that I think should be added, Stendhal's "Red and the Black" is something I would like my kid to read but probably never made it on a must read book list that wasn't written by an avowed socialist. What would you add to a cultural literacy book list?

by alpha0 671 days ago  ·  link
I really (really) enjoyed these books:

- Milorad Pavic came across even translated. Highly recommend both the Dictionary (I read the feminine version ;P) and Landscape Painted with Tea. The former is quite intriguing to say the least, and the latter is simply beautiful and pleasure to read. (The latter also most certainly did influence my objection to NATO dispossessing the Serbs from their holy homeland.)

- The first half of Lolita. Almost perfect. Amazes me that the guy was not an Irishman and rather a Russian.

- Gabriel García Márquez and One Hundred Years of Solitude. Can't imagine how beautiful that must read in Spanish. Hugely influenced my own writing when I was younger. Love those epic paragraphs.

For Iranians, there are many candidate books, but there is the singular presence and impact of Shahnameh (The Book of Kings), written by Ferdowsi and by every account singularly responsible for rescuing Iranians from the fate of other nations steamrolled by the corrosive Arab occupation -- look at the poor Egyptians and Syrians, for example. That book is responsible for the fact that Persian is still spoken. We name our sons and daughters from the characters of that book. Then there are the poets and these days two of them (Mowlana aka Rumi and Hafiz) are rather hip in certain Western circles.

(One of our great works of literature -- kinda like the "Gulf" -- has gotten hijacked and goes by the moniker of "1001 Arabian Nights, complete with Persian characters and not an Arab character in sight. It used to be called Hezar (1000) Afsaneh (Stories).

Of the holy books, certain passages of OT -- just read in sing song Genesis and be amazed -- The Song of Solomon, certain Psalms of David, and of course portions of The Gospels are very dear. The Qur'an's ace in the sleeve is in fact its aural impact on the reader/listener; it has a remarkably powerful voice; I have not encountered anything like it in my years.

But then there is The Gita. I love the Gita.

by cgod 672 days ago  ·  link
I can't stand Falkner. His characters are all people I wouldn't care to know in real life and are doing/thinking nothing that I care to be bothered about, I don't know why he is considered to be a great american author.

On the other hand, there are many great authors and books which I haven't been able to engage with, but I am unwilling to contest their greatness. I am a huge reader of nautical history and fiction, but can't seem to get into most of Melville work, I don't think he is a bad writer, something about him just doesn't engage me.

Ulysses was impenetrable to me, it must be great, or the king has no clothes, I'm not certain which, it was so impenetrable to me that I don't know.

I think there is something about trying to define what is great literature that doesn't sit right with me, or at least trying to say that "these are the 100 greatest books ever written." It's like people who get in arguments about who the greatest guitar player ever was. It's fine to say "I think the greatest guitar player ever is Leo Kottke," but to assert it as fact just seems foolish. Reading the entire list of a 100 greatest books of all times is probably less edifying then following your interest and then looking on amazon and reading whatever people who like what you what you liked also enjoyed. Well that might not be true if you read trashy romance novels, but if you are a serious and open minded reader I think it might be.

by alpha0 672 days ago  ·  link
> I think there is something about trying to define what is great literature that doesn't sit right with me

I have a simple formula: Great literature shapes language, thought, and feelings. So Bible is great literature, & pretty much anything by William Shakespeare.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13320268/Neologisms-by-Shakespeare

> Joyce

(We just have to wait and see if James Joyce really did write the "new Bible" (per Jung)).

by mk 672 days ago  ·  link
I think A Clockwork Orange qualifies. :) Damn good book, btw.
by alpha0 672 days ago  ·  link
That is an amazing book.
by mk 672 days ago  ·  link
Yes, it really is inspired. I only read it about two years ago. Of course I had seen the movie long before. Such a work.
by alpha0 672 days ago  ·  link
Have seen that film at least 20 times. First few times around (not having read the book) I thought the world of Kubrick; the language is simply phenomenal and gives every appearance of (organic) plausibility. Then finally read the book and it became clear that for once Kubrick was actually riding someone else's fast moving coattails. That is a must read book.

(Speaking of the film: have you noted that there a just a 2 'individual' characters in that film and the rest are 'repeated patterns'?)

by mk 671 days ago  ·  link
>(Speaking of the film: have you noted that there a just a 2 'individual' characters in that film and the rest are 'repeated patterns'?)

No. Alex and P.R. Deltoid?

by alpha0 671 days ago  ·  link
No, deltoid is a clone of his dad. Writer looks like "dear lovely Ludwig Van's" bust. It's the priest.
by caio 671 days ago  ·  link
"Great literature shapes language, thought, and feelings." In a general way or in a personal one?
by alpha0 671 days ago  ·  link
Well, as a cultural product its primary impact is the host culture (and/or invaded or related nations). For example, every time I sit in cab in NYC and the driver is Pakistani or Afghani, they start quoting Persian literature for me. It is quite embarrassing for me since they know their Saadi far better than the native son :( (Apparently Persian Literature is on the curriculum in Central Asia.)

These cultural product provide concise pedagogical content that the larger society absorbs and then, in a "personal" way, each individual applies in (both) his or her internal reflection and external expression. There is pretty much a Persian proverb for every little thing that can happen and most come from "literature" of our greats. Of course, for the serious reader, each of these compact literary forms are gateways to the deeper (occult) content matter.

http://www.pantherwebworks.com/I_Ching/bk1h11-20.html#16

by mk 673 days ago  ·  link
For me it's Ulysses and The Fall. I found Ulysses interestingly irreverent, but not much fun; it felt like watching a Man Ray film. I stopped about 1/3 the way through. Have you ever watched a Man Ray film? enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNYhgcV3o-E

As for let's talk about the Fall it felt like and you know what I mean this.

I didn't see much in the Great Gatsby either. Don Quixote was ok.

My favorite 'Great Literature': Moby Dick and War and Peace.

by marcus 658 days ago  ·  link
I've been reading Ulysses this month (600 pages in). I agree with you, it is interesting but it often feels more like I'm doing a really hard crossword puzzle more than reading something that will strengthen my connection with humanity. At the end of each chapter I feel the rush of adrenalin I get when I solve a puzzle but reflecting on it the next day it just seems, for the most part, very hollow.

I'm with you on War and Peace too. That and The The Brothers Karamazov are two of my favorites. I also love East of Eden.

by mk 658 days ago  ·  link
Congrats, you got further than I did. It seems to me a book that might have been more fun to write than it is to read. I think Joyce knew what he was doing.

I haven't read either The Brothers Karamazov or East of Eden. My list grows long. :)

by thenewgreen 672 days ago  ·  link
As for the Man Ray film, it at least has a nice ending ;)
by caio 671 days ago  ·  link
My thoughts exactly.
by mk 672 days ago  ·  link
Ha! The funniest thing is I didn't even watch it to the end. Maybe Ulysses has an ending like that?
by thenewgreen 673 days ago  ·  link
Gatsby is often criticized as not being relatable. -I for one felt great empathy for Gatsby. I read the book when I was 16, I was madly in love with a girl that used to be interested in me but was now with someone from a "nicer" family and drove a convertible at 16 etc. -Defining moment for me really. Sad but beautifully written IMO.
by alpha0 673 days ago  ·  link
I had the ~ same experience with GG.

It's funny how age affects our perceptions. Today, I am convinced that Fitzgerald was actually projecting the emotional underbelly of the American dream intersected with the Immutable Laws of Desire :) It is, I would think, a critique of the said dream. Something of a personal prophecy too, considering what Zelda managed to do to him.

by AhimMoonchowsen 672 days ago  ·  link
Yeah, Zelda really did a number on him didn't she? Hemingway loathed that relationship and what it did to Fitzgerald. I think I read a piece here on Hubski regarding Hemingways views of Fitzgerald.
by mk 672 days ago  ·  link
Oh crap. Now I am going to have to read this book again. :) Thanks guys.
by caio 672 days ago  ·  link
I also read a little of Gatsby. Didn't finish it. Call me crazy, but I was annoyed with the narrator. It was like he wasn't even there. He was just an eye and words describing what was happening. to make matters worse, my edition has an introduction, a preface to the brazilian edition, an appendix with "The Brief Life of F. Scott Fitzgerald", notes on the author, explanatory notes about parts of the book, a postscript from the american editor, a preface to the "critical edition" (?) of 1991 and an essay entitled "The text of The Great Gatsby".

Well, that's just trying too hard, good sirs.

by caio 672 days ago  ·  link
I read "The Sun Also Rises" and was bored to death. I enjoy nothing-happens stories, but this book it's just Hemingway's stand-in drinking, fishing, getting sad because the girl doesn't want him, drinking, seeing the bulls, drinking. The end.

I might try some Hemingway later, but only the short stories. If his novel are all like that, I'm done.

by mk 672 days ago  ·  link
I'd suggest The Old Man and the Sea. Short and good. It's not optimistic, but there is an existential tone to it that weaves man with nature in a way that few authors do, IMO. I enjoyed For Whom the Bell Tolls, but it's not a cheery read.
by caio 672 days ago  ·  link
I actually read "The Old Man and the Sea", but I read it so fast that I don't remember anything. I might try again.
by AhimMoonchowsen 673 days ago  ·  link
Wow, Gravity's Rainbow took a beating. Catcher in the Rye though?? -Hmm, not sure I'm agreeing with this one. I agree that it takes the right time/place for some books. For me it was "Wuthering Heights", written by the only Bronte sister. -Pretty much a soap opera, but I actually enjoyed it when I was stuck in a Cabin one rainy weekend.
by caio 672 days ago  ·  link
I read "Wuthering Heights" once, some time ago. I remember liking it. This very week, I tried re-reading it. One chapter in, I had to put the book down and consult Wikipedia to find out when the story began. Three-chapter prologue? "No, thanks," said my attention span. It really is a soap opera, but I'm inclined to say that it wasn't intended to read like one when it was written?
by cgod 672 days ago  ·  link
I never liked the Catcher in the Rye, and have no idea why anyone does.
by AhimMoonchowsen 672 days ago  ·  link
You know that period right after a storm when the sky is in transition and everything is a yellowy-gold that normally doesn't occur in nature? For me, The Catcher in the Rye is like this. It captures a fleeting transitional moment in a young mans life. This is a stage that Holden will never recapture. I read it as a kid and thought it was just alright. I read it as an adult and it made more sense to me.
by caio 672 days ago  ·  link
I think Ahim got it right. I also liked Catcher. To me, it was a book about this kid who didn't know any better, but was going to prove to everybody that he did. I thought it was funny.
by mk 670 days ago  ·  link
Try Franny and Zooey (if you haven't) on a lazy afternoon. To me, that is the essence of Salinger. 9 Stories has a couple that also resonate with me. "Down at the Dingy" is one, "Pretty Mouth and Green My Eyes" is another.

I liked Catcher in the Rye, (I agree with Ahim), but it wasn't my favorite. It might sound odd, but to me, Salinger can effectively address the idea that all we say and do are brushstrokes. There is a much more complicated narrative inside, but the brushstrokes we make are what everyone else gets. Sometimes they are all we get too.

by thenewgreen 673 days ago  ·  link
"100 Years of Solitude" sat on our bookshelf for years and I never touched it. Then I went to visit my cousin in Guatemala City and saw it on their bookshelf. For some reason it looked much more appealing there. I read it throughout our travels in Guat. and it remains one of my favorite reads. The ending is by far my favorite of any book I've read.
by alpha0 673 days ago  ·  link
""I brought it home cradled in my arms, kept it next to my bed, carried it with me everywhere for several months, and never got past the first paragraph."

In my last year of undergrad "studies" :) I picked up a small book by Jung; a selection of some his works. I read and re-read that first paragraph over and over again and it would not penetrate at all!

A couple of years later, and an (internal) event, I got the actual book (Aion) and started reading. That book's margins are covered with arguments with Jung. We were on the same wavelength, finally.

There is certainly something to Joyce (even though I never bothered to grant him the same attention as Jung, since Jung was a pedagogue and Joyce -- I agree -- an intellectual masturbator) and I am sure it is quite rewarding to those who penetrate it. I just like reading him for the pleasing sound of his text.

[Aion is a great book btw: http://www.amazon.com/Aion-Researches-Phenomenology-Collecte...]



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