I mute people who are dicks. During periods of immigrant quiet I mute people who are dicks to me in at least two rounds of discussion. During periods of immigrant noise I mute people who are dicks to others. it has nothing to do with dissenting opinion or disagreement. b_b and I often disagree. mk and I often disagree. The trick is we disagree without ad hominem attacks on each other, disparaging comments or belittling dialogue. I unmute people who I work things out with. Something everyone fails to consider when bitching about muting is it's completely reversible. Muted? I'll bet you can figure out why. Don't want to be muted? Work it out with the person who muted you. Can't contact them? find someone who mutually follows both of you and get them to intercede. Learn to recover from your misunderstandings and the world will be a better place. If I post content, I am 100% within my rights to keep the discussion of that content dick-free. I am doing a service to those who follow my content by doing so. If I post something about microbiology, and the best microbiologist on Hubski is also a dick, his dickish comments have no place in the discussion. Maybe he hasn't been a dick to you. Maybe he never will be. But if I post it, and he's been a dick to me in the past, odds are he's going to be a dick in the future and the discussion should be about microbiology, not about me and the dick. As eightbitsamurai mentions, the undertone of this discussion is always entitlement and it's always driven by people who are new here. This time it's unusual in that a good bulk of our new users actually signed up for an account the last two or three times they got pissed off at Reddit but then forgot about it until recently, but it doesn't change the fact that it's people with under a hundred comments complaining about the behavior of people with over a hundred comments. LOOK. The person who posted that thread you want to comment on? they don't owe you shit. the world will continue in its orbit without your pithy contribution and, amazingly enough, will likely be more civil through your absence. Some of us have been here for years and have other users blocked who have also been here for years. Some of us have even had people blocked for years only to unblock them. That social pressure you're feeling from being blocked? It's a power for good. It shapes behavior. It encourages civility and demonstrates that there are consequences for vitriol. If you don't like being muted, stop being the kind of person who gets muted. If you don't think you are, then chances are good you and the person who muted you have nothing to say to each other anyway. This is not a site about how Jeff and Jeri can't get along. This is a site about thoughtful discussion. You're muted because someone judged you incapable of it. Work it out or move on because those of us who have been here a while have been through half a dozen of these shirt-rending, hair-tearing rap sessions about the evils of censorship and I'm here to tell ya - Every new influx of Reddit uncouth causes an expansion not just of muting, but of the mute options available.
I'm happy to say I haven't even really run across much in the way of ad hominem attacks yet, but it sounds like I've just been lucky. This sounds like a totally reasonable use of muting, though. Personally, I don't care that much with the one person who muted me. I feel like I've refrained from personally attacking anyone on Hubski. If they want to mute me that's their business, but it did make me think about how people use it.
Here you're detailing ideal use of Hubski. Yes, if you're being reasonable in your muting practices, which it sounds like you are, you're basically creating better threads for other people. However, not everyone is so thoughtful or discerning. Let's recall that my example was not of one person being a dick to someone else, but of their disagreeing about Israel. We'll go ahead and say that it's explicitly not in a racist way. It's really not about me, man. I don't feel the deep desire to respond to this person's posts. It's just an aspect of Hubski's moderation system that I hadn't considered before and one that sounds like it might run into some scaling issues if it's abused. I don't think I am the kind of person who gets muted. From what this thread seems to indicate ideological muting is something of a rarity. Some people do it but not most people. Every new influx of Reddit uncouth causes an expansion not just of muting, but of the mute options available. Again, I know you wrote this all at once and I'm responding to it all at once but you seem to have decided to make the tail end of this post personal so I'm going to repeat myself for emphasis. This isn't about me. This isn't about the person who muted me, I don't care about that person and I don't expect to suddenly be muted by 1000 other people. This thread exists because it hadn't even occurred to me that anyone on Hubski would use the muting function in this way and I was wondering how many people did and what else they used it for. That is literally all. Please direct your hostility toward users complaining about being muted toward someone who is actually complaining about being muted. Thank you.I mute people who are dicks. During periods of immigrant quiet I mute people who are dicks to me in at least two rounds of discussion. During periods of immigrant noise I mute people who are dicks to others. it has nothing to do with dissenting opinion or disagreement. b_b and I often disagree. mk and I often disagree. The trick is we disagree without ad hominem attacks on each other, disparaging comments or belittling dialogue.
I unmute people who I work things out with. Something everyone fails to consider when bitching about muting is it's completely reversible. Muted? I'll bet you can figure out why. Don't want to be muted? Work it out with the person who muted you. Can't contact them? find someone who mutually follows both of you and get them to intercede. Learn to recover from your misunderstandings and the world will be a better place.
If I post content, I am 100% within my rights to keep the discussion of that content dick-free. I am doing a service to those who follow my content by doing so. If I post something about microbiology, and the best microbiologist on Hubski is also a dick, his dickish comments have no place in the discussion. Maybe he hasn't been a dick to you. Maybe he never will be. But if I post it, and he's been a dick to me in the past, odds are he's going to be a dick in the future and the discussion should be about microbiology, not about me and the dick.
As eightbitsamurai mentions, the undertone of this discussion is always entitlement and it's always driven by people who are new here. This time it's unusual in that a good bulk of our new users actually signed up for an account the last two or three times they got pissed off at Reddit but then forgot about it until recently, but it doesn't change the fact that it's people with under a hundred comments complaining about the behavior of people with over a hundred comments. LOOK. The person who posted that thread you want to comment on? they don't owe you shit. the world will continue in its orbit without your pithy contribution and, amazingly enough, will likely be more civil through your absence.
If you don't like being muted, stop being the kind of person who gets muted. If you don't think you are, then chances are good you and the person who muted you have nothing to say to each other anyway.
This is not a site about how Jeff and Jeri can't get along. This is a site about thoughtful discussion. You're muted because someone judged you incapable of it. Work it out or move on because those of us who have been here a while have been through half a dozen of these shirt-rending, hair-tearing rap sessions about the evils of censorship and I'm here to tell ya -
See, and here you are, thinking I'm hostile. I'm not. I'm tired of the entitlement. We're all tired of the entitlement. There was a user on here that I didn't get along with. We were both strong personalities. Lots of people followed us both. We'd tried, on at least two occasions, to work through our differences and failed. We were better off not interacting with each other, despite the fact that we often posted similar content. And so it was, in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. But then 2015 came around and the newbies hounded her off. She deleted her account this time because we gained enough assholes that she couldn't hang. She didn't feel commenting in other people's posts because she got hounded. So she's gone now, and Hubski is lesser for it. You talk about my "ideal" use of the mute function. Isn't "ideal" what we should all strive for? Shouldn't the design of the site encourage "ideal" use? 'cuz see, we didn't have "block" until _wage was gone because the rest of us were able to use the tools available to maintain a civil discourse. It wasn't until the propagation of bad actors required stricter personal moderation tools. You're right. It's not about you. But you posted the thread, so you will be used as an example. If you don't care that much, why all the soul-searching? If not everyone is that thoughtful or discerning, why do you care who they mute or don't? Li'l secret: If Alfred has Bob muted but not Charlie, and Charlie really wants Bob's opinion on Alfred's post, Charlie can shout-out Bob and Bob will be able to reply to Charlie. This has two effects: the first of which, if Alfred really hates Bob, he might start muting Charlie. But if Alfred respects Charlie, he'll either let it slide or maybe even reconsider muting. Hey - he might even PM Charlie and Bob together so they can work their shit out. You can google "hubski muting" and see all this. It's not like zero thought has been put into the functionality, and it's not like your objections are new. The fact of the matter is, the system as it stands has evolved to reflect the interests and intent of the people who use it the most. Hubski is not based around subjects. At one point, mk actually got rid of tags, making it entirely about people. It was an experiment, and it was a failure, but it definitely demonstrated where the focus lies. Hubski is about people, and regardless of how knowledgeable two people are, if they can't get along they're not going to add anything to the discussion. Case in point: I gave you a differing opinion, and you took it as a personal attack. the majority of your response is buried under hurt feelings. That's why mute exists.
I hadn't realized that shout-outs worked like that, that's neat! Why the soul-searching? I wouldn't really call it that. I'm interested in what Hubski does to conversation. So far, in my experience, it seems to really encourage quality discussion. People seem to have a refreshing ability to disagree with one another and talk about it without it turning into a brawl. From what I can tell that's largely influenced by the moderation system, and this is an aspect of that that I literally had not once ever considered until I noticed today that someone had muted me. This left me with many questions about how Hubski users typically use the mute function, many of which have been answered in detail. Some by you! Sorry if I misread hostility where it didn't exist!
To be fair, your original comment seemed passive-aggressive as fuck; even though it's probably unintentional. Anyways, thanks for this comment. It was enlightening to see this topic from the point of view of a veteran Hubskier, and is one of the first comments in this thread to make me go "huh... I see where he's coming from". You could well be right, maybe us new users are entitled little pricks, but as we learn about the site, its dynamics, and its users, hopefully that will change. Just bear in mind that we are still getting used to the site, don't know how the site evolved, and also forget that bumping old posts is encouraged here. From my experience, moving into Hubski from Reddit is a little like moving into a new country. The 'culture shock' is pretty big, and having locals shouting "damned immigrants!" at you isn't exactly helpful.
I'm not sure where I was passive. I think it's fair to say that it's aggressive-aggressive. This is because every time Reddit shits the bed, Hubski becomes borderline unusable. And we all REALLY LIKE the people we get who stick around, so we all suffer through two or three weeks of heavy sighs and exasperated PMs and baseline irritation and a thousand and one posts and comments about Reddit because we know that this is our culture, not yours, and you really want to contribute but Reddit is all you know, so we all act as welcoming and inviting as we can because odds are, if you found us here you will get along. But. - someone has to complain about the layout. - someone else has to complain about the lack of mobile. - someone else demands an API. - someone else spams #askhubski with a faux-intelligent discussion. - someone else decries muting - someone else decries ignoring - someone else has a public hissy-fit about that person that has them muted but they just gotta get in their words argh argh argh - and someone else has to predict the eventual demise of Hubski if it doesn't conform to their preconceived notions of how the place ought to work. This is why "lurk moar." If the average new user could STFU and watch for three weeks, they'd piss off exactly no one, they'd understand the site dynamics, they'd start following dozens of interesting people and when they wander into #pubski they'd know what everyone's talking about because Hubski is a place where once a week we can post a "random off-topic stuff from your life" thread and have it not descend into narcissistic chaos. That's unrealistic, though - Hubski is very much about participation, so we all do our best to suffer the children despite the fact that we see this stuff so often we can almost set our clocks by it. We know you're getting used to it. We know it's alien to you. What you need to know is that we're giving you every last bit of patience we got and that the semi-annual mute discussions tax many of us past the point of cheerfulness.To be fair, your original comment seemed passive-aggressive as fuck; even though it's probably unintentional.
Fair enough! I'm ashamed to admit I'm guilty of a few of those crimes. I suppose it's like when I try to assemble furniture from Ikea. I ignore the instructions and assume I'm doing it right, until I realize it's crooked and there are 15 screws left over. "Lurk moar" is my big take away from this whole thread anyway. Cheers!I'm not sure where I was passive. I think it's fair to say that it's aggressive-aggressive.
And here I was thinking you were a peaceful guy! Haha.
Piss me off? No. Make me resentful? Yes. I have better things to do today than weed the garden but this is a time-sensitive discussion and traditionally, it's my job to lance the boil. The fact of the matter is we can't put "you're wrong about muting" in the primer because Hubski is a highly-personalized experience. So every time we have an influx of users, we need to have a highly-personalized discussion of why you're wrong about muting. We do this because Hubski is a fragile ecosystem subject to shock and when a whole bunch of people show up and find nothing to talk about other than their freeze peaches, they drive away the people who actually add to the discussion. So somebody - and it's appropriate that it's the most polarizing member of the entire site - has to shape the discussion in such a way that the people who demand their freeze peaches get it but also in such a way that the people who make this place what it is feel they've gotten their voice represented, too. It's impossible to get the hang of a community's long-term dynamics without being a long-term member. It's also impossible to retain long-term members if the environment ceases to be conducive to them. And every time we get a Reddit influx, I see a whole bunch of new names and notice a dearth of old. The yammering about stuff other than what was here before you drives away the people who make this place what it is. Not all at once, and not totally, but we're legitimately fighting attrition. 8bit is putting on his "I don't have to suffer you crackers" face which is never good. Ref has been largely absent, minus some lashing out. Several other names I'm forgetting are finding better things to do, primarily because we've got a bunch of new faces jostling around and shining their newness. And I'll bet every one of you has some greatness. And I'm looking forward to finding out what it is. but 8bit wrote a goddamn video game about Hubski. If I have to burn every last one of you to the ground to keep him around, I'll do it with a smile on my face. So the gentle "there, there, mute isn't so bad, actually it's really handy!" discussion for the newbies has to be balanced out with a "STFU and get out of my way n00b" flavor for the old guard so that they remember that this land is our land and that we will always favor the incumbent. there are two sides to the discussion and both of them need to make it from "peaches fresh or frozen" to "be excellent to each other." It's nuance that I didn't really want to flex today, but there it is. Does that make sense?
It makes absolute sense. It actually reminds me of an article I read damn near a decade ago at this point about maintaining the core users of a community so that others don't get alienated as the atmosphere drifts from what it once was, leading to splintering and basically just becoming the rest of the internet. We used to do this by flaming and trolling every single new member. Most people would leave. So yeah, I get ya. ;)
I'm two days short of three weeks, so I'm going to take a bit of a risk and pester you with another question. If the majority of hubski users feel that way (and it seems like they do) why not make a policy change around it? Mute new users, or make the site invite/application only? If there's a two week or so delay between when people ask to join and when they are let in, that might encourage lurking. It could also be used to throttle new users so we don't swarm in and crowd out your discussions. I feel bad for people complaining about the reddit influx, but as one of them I'm also happy I found this place.
Sorry. Got busy. Wanna see unholy hell fire? BAM. No, no wait. Wanna see even more unholy hellfire? DOUBLE BAM. All that blood in the water, and we ended up implementing it without any announcement. I can ignore users newer than 2 days. So can you. So can we all. And you know what? It helps a lot. Not just me - because it's an entirely owner-facing choice - but those who would annoy me. It's a really useful feature that is entirely dolphin safe. But ZOMG. The blood spilled. The treasure squandered. The panties twisted. The butts hurt. So it's a work in progress, really.
As an ultra new user, and being directly affected by this, I completely agree. It makes no sense for a butterfly to have a strenous discussion with a caterpillar. Although I might even face the consequence of this, I realize the logic of it