First of all I have to say thank you blackbootz, this was phenomenal to watch. Great suggestion.
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I'll pop in this afternoon after class to participate with you all.
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It's been a while since I've watched it, but these are some thoughts I related some time ago: I highly recommend Barbara Tuchman's The March of Folly. At least her treatment of the Vietnam War. It's astounding. As the son of a Vietnam vet, I have viewed the war in a cynical light since an early age. Nothing I have read has improved my view upon it.IMO the tough part about watching McNamara in The Fog of War, was that he was trying to speak across a chasm. It was as if he was trying to make the public understand why we kill young kids over political maneuvers and diplomatic misunderstandings. As if he just told it how it is, some sense might be made of it. The public is not going to understand that.
They really don't need understand it either. It made little to no sense. Generals rationally wage irrational wars, and I think they sometimes confuse strategy with the rationale.
Well like I said above this was a great film. I really enjoyed watching and learning from it. There's a lot to be said about the film but I guess what stuck with me most is: 1. The Korean War being referred to as The Forgotten War definitely rings true. I don't think it was mentioned once in the film and it was part of that timeline. 2. This is more of a personal one but finally hearing some one of power say that Agent Orange exposure is dangerous and deadly is oh so satisfying. My grandfather contracted leukemia because of exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam and all throughout school when we would study the Vietnam War my teachers would deny that Agent Orange had any negative affect on humans. I know I can read all day about the negatiive effects of Agent Orange on the internet but finally hearing it from some one who has power or influence was very very satisfying.
I thought the most interesting thing about it was the personal character development of Macnamara himself. His history, from whiz kid to war monger to old man apologist trying to right his place in history and potentially with his maker. Lots of guilt there. It's an amazing character study.
I agree, but did he really become a war monger or "bad guy"? A lot of his studies did end up causing massive amounts of harm and he was the SOD during the Vietnam war but in many of the recordings he wasn't outspoken in any opinion. He said to LBJ that they needed to scale back the troops in Vietnam , LBJ disagreed, and so McNamara ended up going with the presidents opinion. I think he was more walking a very fine line than anything else. Am I holding McNamara in a high regard? Yeah and that's probably causing me to overlook some points made in the documentary about him being a war monger. Maybe you can point some out to me that I forgot.
But declassified records from the Lyndon Johnson Library indicated that McNamara misled Johnson on the attack on a U.S. Navy destroyer by withholding calls against executing airstrikes from US Pacific Commanders. Instead, McNamara issued the strike orders without informing Johnson of the hold calls, constituting a usurping of the president’s constitutional power of decision on the use of military force.[26] McNamara was also instrumental in presenting the event to Congress and the public as justification for escalation of the war against the communists. The Vietnam War came to claim most of McNamara's time and energy.During the Kennedy administration, the U.S. military advisory group in South Vietnam steadily increased, with McNamara's concurrence, from 900 to 16,000.[22] U.S. involvement escalated after the Gulf of Tonkin incidents in August 1964, involving an attack on a U.S. Navy destroyer by North Vietnamese naval vessels.[25]
much more
Exactly. But the film shows what he (RM) chooses for us to see. Morris just throws a camera in front of him and lets him talk. It's up to you as the viewer to know some history. Combine those two things, the documented history of events vs RM's self-preservation like biographical account and you've got a really compelling film.
mk pointed out that we've discussed this film on Hubski, tangentially, years ago. b_b, you should chime in on this discussion, you're a big Errol Morris fan. Thoughts?