36It has been made abundantly clear that Hubski isn't about "things" it's about "people." The default method for finding content is to align yourself with other users on the presumption that you can find those who share your interests. As a distant second, following "tags" is also available.
Three days ago, I linked to a New York Times op-ed by a screenwriter discussing foreclosures in Hollywood. It was tagged #thehumancondition. And for two days, the only comment in there was #thenewgreen asking me if my experiences in Hollywood bore out the observations of the article.
I didn't comment, not because I don't have observations, but because it's a complex issue... for all the reasons discussed in the article. Nonetheless, anyone who saw that article saw it because they either follow me, or they follow someone who follows me. I've made no secret about the industry I work in - for that matter, I have two badged comments related to my work in the entertainment industry. And it's an article posted in "the human condition" in which a person discusses how weird it is that nobody talks about economic hardship in her industry.
One day ago, the consensus suddenly became "fuck those guys in Hollywood. Things are tough all over."
I interjected, quite strongly, that this is my industry. These are my friends. And that nobody should be that dismissive of someone else's suffering, particularly when they're standing there talking to you.
The response was basically "suck it up, ass."
Once I threw a tantrum, the response was "I regret using the phrase boo-fucking-hoo." It sure as fuck wasn't "I'm sorry".
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Something you all should know - digital theft is often discussed on set. The old-school union grudges usually phrase their discussions in some form of "fuck those dirty pirates, they don't understand what real work is like and they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves." I am routinely involved in these discussions, and I have gotten quite practiced at turning the conversation to "punitive pricing models" and "oppression of civil liberties". It's never easy. It's usually tense. But I believe deeply that allowing people to think that content is stolen because "everyone outside of Hollywood is fundamentally an asshole" is detrimental to finding a solution.
MK and I had a discussion a while back about Detroit, and how old-school union car families would give him a hard time for driving a Toyota - first, because it meant he was giving work to a bunch of foreigners but also because Toyotas last longer than American cars, therefore he was stealing food from their families not once, but twice. This is obviously an absurdist position to take. It's always been my opinion that "everyone outside of Hollywood is fundamentally an asshole" is an equally absurdist position.
But apparently not. Anyone within the Thirty Mile Zone reading yesterday's discussion would look at me grimly, shake their heads and say "I told you so."
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone can believe whatever they want to believe, think what they want to think, say what they want to say. But as I understood it, what separates Hubski from any other social news aggregator was the human connection. This "human connection" has been used as an excuse for not implementing features that are commonplace everywhere else. Fine. Sobeit. BUT:
If you're reading an article posted by ME
In which MY industry is being discussed
As has been made abundantly clear not only by comments to the post, but by MY extensive posting history...
To which YOU subscribe, first- or second-hand...
Make the vaguest fucking effort to be polite. Particularly when you're reading an article that discusses the difficulty in discussing things.
I'm the 3rd most popular hub on this site, and the 2nd most popular commenter. There is NO EXCUSE for "oh, I didn't know you had a stake in this game, therefore I'm perfectly justified in being a total asshole." That shit flies on Facebook. That shit flies on Reddit. On a site where your entire method of discovery is getting to know MY interests, that caliber of thoughtlessness is wholly and completely beyond the pale.
I didn't reply to the original post, but I felt little sympathy.
I have friend that works on a major network show, he makes way more money then I do to drive a truck and operate a lift gate. He works really hard (as in lots of hours, but not half the labor I do). When he is done with a season he goes on vacations and buys a bunch of stuff. Sure it hurts when the gravy train runs out. Maybe these people should have socked some money away instead of getting half million dollar mortgages. If my wife and I lost our jobs we could pay for about six months of our current life style and about a year if we cut corners. That isn't even accounting for unemployment insurance or food stamps. We save and plan for an uncertain future. There are many wall street bankers who could cry you river but I don't feel terribly sympathetic for them either.
Are you saying that you are so important to Hubski that we need to handle you with kid gloves? That is what your post reads like.
Yet again, the article wasn't about looking for sympathy, which is not why I posted it. Frankly, I read it once and posted it because I thought people might like a little insight into the non-glamorous Hollywood. But apparently that humanizes Big Media too much, so never fucking mind.
I have all the "open internet" I can choke down, thanks very much. But in a social network where we follow people it helps to attempt a little empathy from time to time. 'cuz you know what? If it doesn't matter that it comes from me, why the fuck do I need to sign my name to it?
That is the point - the fact that yeah - on this website, it matters who posts what, that's what makes it Hubski.
And if that's what MK is going for, and the rest of you aren't on board with it, this is a perfect forum to make that clear.
Once more with honesty, I don't care who makes a post. I am friends with several members of the community, and I think they would all attest that I am generally not a man to mince words. I don't care if it's someones 1st or 1000th post, I think to treat content in any manner is not intellectually or socially dishonest. The idea that the number of followers a person has should determine the delicacy with which I should approach their feelings is an anathematic to my ethical outlook. Tending bar, I treat a broken down old whore with the same grace as a guy with a gold watch in a suit, in accordance with their own behavior. I think that to do otherwise is low behavior, underneath the person I would like to be. In a forum of intellectual exploration, skepticism, challenge, doubt, and debate should be the norm.
You can sweat a bit less in your quest to disallow the less then graceful to follow your posts, I have unfollowed you. I belive that by following you I only help enable some sort of arrogance you have about your hubski status. I have appreciated a great many of your posts and some of your comments, but I feel like you are trying to playing some kind of dominance game here, which I would rather not be part of.
I don't think that it matters when content came from you. I am here to be exposed to interesting ideas, not play a hubski meta followers game. It doesn't really matter what MK was going for here, I use hubski for my own reasons, I hope that is perfectly clear.
Sorry I am not an old hand at playing the social aggregation game, perhaps I am not following the script. I am really not trying to "flame" you, but found the whole matter a distasteful unnecessary intrusion of personal issues that can only detract from my enjoyment of hubski. I am trying to express my honest opinion about my take on this intrusion and share what I think it says about building a community that is trying to shares ideas. Perhaps it's time that a moderator steps in. I don't mean that in the Reddit sense (only a sense which I have inferred from other posts here), but in the sense that it might be time for someone to try to build some lessons learned from this whole thing, and possibly try to form a sense of consensus on the behavioral norms of this community. That might be harder with your post deletion.
I would also like to add that the ability to delete a post that has been commented on seems wrong to me. If people aren't prepared to engage then they shouldn't post. Have the integrity to stand for or at least accept what you have said. I understand the desire to not be controlled by social media, and the appeal of deleting ones missteps, but really controlling a bit of text is somewhat unimportant and seems to me a shield for cowardliness or pettiness.
Posting content to the internet is very much akin to opening Pandora's Box. Once shared, it will prove very difficult to contain. Just ask Alexandra Wallace http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNuyDZevKrU
I did not read the article nor did I participate in the original post, but from what I am able to gathered, differing opinions were expressed that were somewhat touchy for those involved in the discussion. Not everyone is going to see eye to eye and agree on everything and that is what makes for a good discussion. What fun would that be if we all just buzzed along to the same tune and be nothing more than a part of the hive mind. What I find most appealing about Hubski is the diversity of opinions and experiences of the community, despite the fact that it is not nearly as big as the other social news sites. In many ways, it feels more diverse than both Digg and Reddit combined. Hubksi to me has been a great platform for me to discover news and ideas (a lot of which came from you) and to interact with a great community of intelligent individuals. I surely do hope that the "flame war central" comment was nothing more than words from a heat of the moment impulse. It will be a horrible thing if yet another platform with such great potential see its fire snuffed out.
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Posted by me:
I'm disappointed. I don't feel that anything I wrote was a personal attack on you kleinbl00. I rarely pay attention to who posted the articles until after I've read them, and this example is no different. I'm usually a "if you don't have anything nice, don't say it at all," in this type of public forum. I suppose I should have stuck to my guns, but I just didn't like this article. I'm sorry you were offended by my reaction.
The facts remain: Hollywood is insulated. The average listing price in Hollywood was $698,000 as of this week. http://bit.ly/z678TX Compare that to the rest of the US: http://bit.ly/yE3AQ According to the US census, the average home price in the US is $272,900. If you could qualify for a home in Hollywood, you are not among the average - you just aren't.
Your response which you later deleted:
I give a shit for your disappointment. The only comment in this thread for three days was asking my opinion, because it's my industry. These are my friends, my coworkers, the people I talk to at craft service. It was wholly and completely a personal attack. The facts remain: Hollywood is insulated. That doesn't mean we aren't suffering. And yes, I know goddamn well what a house costs - what you're missing is that none of us own them. Yeah - compare that to the rest of the country. Go right ahead. I pay $2200 for a two bedroom 1100sqft apartment and I'm getting a bargain. For what a 3bd house in my neighborhood costs, I could buy a 52 acre ranch in Washington... or a 200 acre ranch in New Mexico. We call that "the cost of living." Your argument boils down to "you pay a high cost of living, therefore you are unworthy of sympathy." To which I say, in no uncertain terms, fuck off. EVERYTHING you wrote was a personal attack. "Oh, boo, hoo. People are losing their homes. Why don't they move to Yuma where things are really tough." Because my industry doesn't exist in Yuma, fuckhead.
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It is egocentric to think that everyone should know who you are and know what boundaries not to cross. As popular as you think you are, you're just another username to a lot of people. I did follow you directly because I think you have an interesting insight on many topics. Still do. But I, nor most, have enough time to read every post you make and retain every minute detail of your life. I thought you worked as an Architect. I didn't know you lived in Hollywood. I didn't know you worked in the Entertainment Industry.
If you had left the posts as they were, undeleted, and weren't trying to deliberately distort what happened you might get more sympathy. You received an apology, you just refused to acknowledge it. The fact that this tantrum is dragging on for days speaks more to your character than anyone who responded to you.
In fr33lunch defense kleinbl00, I too followed you directly for the same reason he did. But I don't feel like commenting in many discussions you partecipate because I don't feel like I can contribute smth valuable on the topic being discussed...
If you think you didn't say something offensive, but the other party continues to be offended, you're mistaken.
You didn't apologize. You said "I regret using the phrase "boo hoo" in such a callous manner. I realize that it has triggered an unnecessary amount of emotion for such a touchy topic."
But you sure as shit didn't say it to me.
You said "I'm sorry you were offended by my reaction." That's a long fucking road from "I'm sorry I offended you."
It is not egocentric to think that when I tell people to back off, they're hitting emotional territory, they might want to think about backing off because they're hitting emotional territory. You have yet to apologize. You have yet to do more than say "I feel completely justified in being a dick, this is all you." You have yet to acknowledge that for two solid days, the only comment on that post was one asking me about my insight into the industry:
http://hubski.com/pub?id=18672
I'm not distorting shit. I tore into you like a buzzsaw into bologna because you were a total ass not once, but twice, after being told to back down. Even once I blew the fuck up all over you, you still didn't back down to me. And now here you are, proud and mighty over taking your stand.
Also - man - I gotta tell ya, I entirely disagree about offense. You can't offend me. Only I can choose to take offense. You can call me anything you want. You can deride me personally, professionally, and spiritually, but in the end, it's up to me to be offended or not.
I don't always agree with you KB, in fact, sometimes your tone puts me off - but that's why I follow you. I look for the opposing viewpoint and differing opinion. I hope after this blows over you'll consider sticking around. I enjoy your point of view - especially when I don't agree with it.
Shit like this is why I'm starting to hate reddit. Posters like you and karmanaut. It's why I decided to try this place out.
1. Check out http://hubski.com/topsubs , http://hubski.com/topcoms , and http://hubski.com/badgesubs to see some of the more popular posts and comments.
2. From there, you should be able to quickly find hubs that will be of interest to you.
3. Engage in discussions, share content and your thoughts
4. Profit...... intellectually.
Don't worry, what this boils down to is that it's someone that takes a social news website way too seriously. He's angry because people don't give him the respect he deserves, dammit! Didn't you know he's the number two commenter here?
I've hated reddit for a while now, but I keep going back to a few of the smaller subs that I really enjoy. There's rarely any good content in the default subs, and if there is, the comments are generally worthless. So now I'm here in the hopes that I can find decent discussion and entertaining, thought provoking content, and the first thing I see is this whiny little baby crying about imaginary internet points and getting upset because a stranger on the nets had the audacity to say something he didn't like. At the top of the page. Kind of a bad sign, but it's not going to push me away immediately.
Really Kleinb?
You know what? I'm tired of this. You're full of shit.
I posted a comment about the article which amounted to "It's obvious that workers in Hollywood are in the same boat everybody else is in, and why would the author express incredulity at this fact?". http://hubski.com/pub?id=18915
For that I was called a shit and a fuck. I don't know you. I don't follow your hub (someone must have promoted it). Now I see you BITCHING to other users that they have not apologized to you and DEMANDING people be polite.
Where's mine? You deleted your post instead after I called you out on it.
You're a pussy with anger management issues and an ego so big that the word 'caricature' comes to mind.
"I'm the 3rd most popular hub on this site, and the 2nd most popular commenter. There is NO EXCUSE for "oh, I didn't know you had a stake in this game,"
You're a hypocritical little slut is what you are.
I've always been of the opinion that men can be sluts to. I'm kind of progressive that way I guess. 'Pussy', you're absolutely right about. It's as bad as calling someone a faggot, which I strive never to do.
So for the record, Kleinb is a coward. Not a pussy. Doesn't quite have the punch, but whatever. I'm a modern man.
The article and the comments notwithstanding, I think you owe it to me not to be pissed at me. Be pissed at the people that pissed you off, but I don't deserve animosity that arose from that situation. I don't like to be grouped, especially in a disparaging way.
If you're going to make users responsible for their content, you need to give users responsibility for their content. Anything else is hypocritical.
The fact that a bunch of thoughtless chuckleheads decided to use a post of mine to talk smack about my friends and there was nothing I could do about it because of you did, in fact, piss me off.
Just great...
On another note, my son (16) recently gave me an essay of Corey Doctorow's to read on copyright. I'll find a copy online and post it up - if you haven't seen it then it will probably resonate.
-XC