I had a dream last night that I was being an asshole to someone and mk came up and tapped me on the shoulder with a disapproving look. I then apologized.

I'm normally pretty kind and welcoming to people I don't know well. When I get to know people better I'm more apt to be a jerk sometimes. But isn't that the way it goes? We tend to be cruelest to the ones we love. What I've learned is that if someone is rude to me it usually has nothing to do with the topic at hand but rather something unrelated. We humans are complex puzzles of emotional oddness.

My father in law gave us a book even before we were married titled "His Needs, Her Needs." -some good advice in there.

Being nice is always valuable. You can tell a LOT about someone by how they treat people. I've met people that were rude to strangers, servers in restaurants etc and I have little patience for that.

I like the Conan O'brien quote, "if you work really hard and are kind, amazing things will happen." -I believe the hard work and the kindness are equals in that equation.

after he did something nice for me and I thanked him for it, he said, "Well, that's what we're doing, right? Being nice to each other?"

I love that, what a sweet and perfect principle to go by.

When I'm with a girl I really care about, I always have an urge to do very cheesy things. If she thinks it's uncool or lame yeah that's half the idea, things like texting her good morning and putting a fresh cup of coffee in her locker before school. because I want her to be happy with something to laugh at the corniness, but even as just an afterthought, also to appreciate: a tiny positive addition to every day.

If that seems normal to you, it's not anymore. Not around me. But the idea is important, kindness even regardless of love.

And to answer your other question: virtually every time I've deeply hated someone I've eventually regretted it, or felt it was truly so meaningless. Hatred up to a point-- and I hope nobody here ever has to reach that point-- is temporary. Hate is temporary, just like love up to a point is temporary-- and I hope everyone here gets to experience that point-- but there's a chance you won't.

You've got good judgement ref, that person on the other side of the screen probably is an asshole. I know I've been. But there's a lot of people out there that can make you real mad real quick and you can bet every nerve left in your body that they'll just keep coming.

As I always say, those people are screaming from the mountaintop, they're not listening to you, and they're not going to climb down to sit at your table to hear another perspective so trying to engage in discussion is useless. Once you start yelling too, you won't be able to hear the people around you trying to console you either, and all of a sudden you're another asshole with a bullhorn screaming from the mountaintop.

Here's the kicker though: one of the things I want most in a girl? To kick my ass when it needs kickin'. To let me know when I'm wrong, to look me in the eyes and tell me she's hurt or I was hurtful to someone when I don't realize it. I want her to tell me when I'm a lazy slob and when I can pick myself up and improve. and I want her to know that she's got flaws too, and we're going to start with the smallest little additions to every day that will make both of us the best people we can be. Why? Because as mk so very well said:

But, speaking for myself (with the advantage of hindsight), the healthiest relationship that I ever had (the one I have now) came at a time in my life when I was without a doubt content not to be in one.

And when I'm too content I don't mind being reminded to straighten up and fly right.

edit: I should try to keep a train of thought next time.

So I've been in a good relationship for twelve years now. Before that I was in a bad one for four and a half. Doesn't make me an expert, but it does entitle me to an opinion.

I was on the UW campus while Gottman & Co were building their Love Shack. They were in the news a lot. To their credit, they downplayed any attempts to paint their research as revolutionary, instead emphasizing that their observations and measurements were pretty well in line with common sense. They further tended to remind reporters that warning signs are easy to spot by laypeople, but that those driven by pheromones and animal attraction tended to ignore them.

The "bid/call" thing, for example, is far simpler than the article would have you believe. "Hi, I'm over here and would like to interact with you" is pretty easy to answer with "I wish to interact with you" if it's true. If it's false, the relationship is doomed. That's something the article doesn't get into because it doesn't fit into the handy-dandy "ten ways to save your relationship" buzzfeed format that is now infecting even the Atlantic: Gottman's findings are useless at saving a relationship but are excellent at predicting a relationship.

You can read between the lines: partners who click are relaxed around each other. You can't force yourself to relax around someone else and have it stick - the whole point of a relationship is to be with someone who puts you at ease. You can't force yourself to be interested in what someone else has to say. You can't force yourself to give a shit about someone you don't give a shit about.

Your new "casual date" is working his way up to that. He's doing nice stuff for you because he wants to do nice stuff for you. You're doing nice stuff for him because you want to do nice stuff for him. You're both astonished at each others' gratitude because you are still fresh and new enough that you aren't taking each other for granted yet.

here's where it gets interesting

Should the relationship continue, one of two things will happen:

1) You will continue to do nice things for each other, but no longer be astonished at the gratitude

2) You will cease to do nice things for each other

Gottman's work basically points out that option (1) is what makes relationships work long-term.

And that's where my "opinion" comes in. My wife and I almost never fight. When we do it's over little misunderstandings and we both work hard to get back to center. It's abundantly clear in the way we both comport ourselves that we're both uncomfortable and that we want to return to harmony. The Girlfriend From Hell, on the other hand, fought constantly. For the longest time I thought I needed to preserve my autonomy - not necessarily "win" but at least make my arguments heard. Four years into the relationship I realized my girlfriend was solely interested in scorched-earth debasement. She didn't just need to be right, she needed me to be wrong, injured and groveling. And yeah - you can stick with that if the sex is good enough. But you'll never be happy.

So as far as relationships go, I'm always nice because I'm always with a nice person. It isn't a choice. It isn't something I work at. It isn't even a consideration. It just is. With a good relationship, it can't help but be that way.

Huh. I was hanging out with a friend last night and we were mutually complaining about people who are too nice all of the time. Her and I can be very dry and sarcastic people, which might come across as less than nice at times, so a person who is constantly cheery or nice and polite isn't somebody that we always want to be around.

I'm nice if I'm around people I'm not very comfortable with, friends when I feel like it, and whenever it's beneficial to be nice. I agree with you saying that it's most valuable when it's the most difficult. The times when you want to be a complete jerk to someone but end up being nice really shape their perception of you for the better, and help to iron out whatever issues are there. Being nice and kind is almost always valuable. My roommates and friends and I do some less than nice things on occasion, but in the end there is comfort in knowing that the kindness and niceness is always there when it's needed. tng just brought this up and it's a good point, I pay a lot of attention to how people treat their waiters/waitresses, bartenders, etc when I'm out with friends or on a date.

As for love, I have no idea what I think about that anymore and I've had a couple mini-internal-breakdowns trying to figure that out lately.

Ive felt that, if you look closely, you can see you get a small high from being nice. When you are nice, more like kind, to someone, it makes you feel good.

Ive been thinking that love and kindness and compassion is kinda the same thing. Like romantic love is the comes from the same place as compassion but with some added attraction. And the idea that we should be loving and kind to our partners, even when they are mean, that idea is present so deep inside us, that it keeps us kind even when we would be a jerk in other situations.

Maybe we lack the idea that we should be kind and nice to everyone, if we were raised believing in that idea, maybe we would all be a lot averse to acting like a jerk. It maybe due to the climate of fear in which we raise children, they are thought to think of strangers as evil and not kind and no wonder we dont hold the concept that we should be kind to others no matter what. But we easily hold that concept about our loved ones.