I'm sure there are people who can make open relationships work. I'll just say that in the 30 years I have been peripheral to the polyamorous community I have never once met one. More than that, nobody griefs quite like polys. Every anecdote I have about a bad breakup - every single one, except with the guy who is a diagnosed sociopath - involves a joint decision to fuck other people. The bitterest humans I know are the ones who tried to make open relationships work. Quoth lil: "Monogamy" can be substituted out of that sentence with no difficulty whatsoever. Polyamory, chess, bass fishing. "I want to explore my sexuality" is a very, VERY different statement than "I want to explore my sexuality with you." Recognize that she is saying "I am offering you no commitments" and that is literally all she is saying. Recognize that she is laying the groundwork for "I owe you fuckall behaviorally speaking" and gird your loins for it. You will suck at this. I say this because I know you. Your best move is to say "come find me when you've figured it out, because you matter to me more than I matter to you right now and I'm not going to put up with that." Li'l story. I've known my wife since 1994. She literally gave me my dorm key. And within a week she was dating this other guy. Dated him for five years. Married him. Stayed married to him for two years. Then got sick of his shit and kicked him out. He was literally the only person she ever dated. And we started dating, and she said a few things about having never really dated, and wanting to maybe figure out what that looked like, and I was kinda cool with it, and she had a party with a group of friends, one of whom, like me, wanted to date her earlier but couldn't, and I thought "I owe her this" and then I immediately thought "no, no I don't" and came right back to the house having left and kicked his ass out. We'd been "dating" for two weeks at the time. That was more than twenty years ago. A serial monogamist who was married for six years doesn't need to figure out her shit at your expense. You can be cool with it? But you won't be happy about it. And she won't respect you. CANCEL AWAY FUCKERSIf monogamy is not based on the desire and joy in being together, then it’s control.
Yeah, I think if I had to sum up what you're saying, it's really to advocate for myself in this situation. You know, I had/have been seriously considering seeking a therapist to help me understand my dating patterns and to dig deeper into understanding and sorting through the people I am attracted to and the people whom I attract. You are aware of, jeez, the last 8+ years of by virtue of Hubski and our separate conversations. I wouldn't call it unhealthy? It is, however, something that seems to continually trend towards relational and emotional instability.Your best move is to say "come find me when you've figured it out, because you matter to me more than I matter to you right now and I'm not going to put up with that."
A serial monogamist who was married for six years doesn't need to figure out her shit at your expense. You can be cool with it? But you won't be happy about it. And she won't respect you.
I'm going to say "men." When i say "men" I am saying "adult males who are generally compassionate individuals who abide by the emotional well-being of their counterparts of any gender and reject the general derogatory and zero-sum philosophy of the pickup-artist community." So when I say "men" I do not mean "all males" I mean, in general, "men who don't suck." And I'm going to say "the biggest mistake I see men make is in over-accommodating the perceived needs of their partners." Not as in "when in doubt, be an asshole" but as in "eagerness to please, if not employed consciously and concisely, can come across as weakness." One of the principles of dating going back hundreds of years is the attractiveness of self-confidence. Self-confidence is not arrogance, and a lot of people confuse the two (it is socially advantageous to muddy the waters in debate). Likewise, humility is not self-abuse... but a lot of people confuse the two. I think people with self confidence simply have a more refined assessment of their personal value. I think everyone is right at least part of the time? But I think the individuals who others describe as "confident" are the ones who know their merits, know their limitations, and are not bashful about making them known. A self-confident person can say "I suck at basketball" without suffering any ego damage. They can also go "this relationship is a poor investment emotionally" without feeling like they're letting themselves or the other person down. I also think that relationships, at a basic level, ARE a mutual pact of control. "I will give up this autonomy for you because we're both happier when we make mutual decisions." Humans are social creatures, in general we want some form of structure within which to live our lives. We don't all want the same things and we don't want the same thing all the time, but a relationship is, fundamentally, an agreement to sacrifice some amount of autonomy for some amount of security. And I think confident individuals have an easier time negotiating that. I also think everyone has a different setting on the "autonomy/control" dial and if your dials aren't aligned you're gonna fight over the thermostat. Look at it as a business proposition. It's crass but crassness cuts through the bullshit. "I will sell you this car for a tenth the sticker price on the understanding that, at any given moment, someone else might be driving it." Is it your only car? Well then you're fucked. Do you already have a Toyota but someone is offering up a Ferrari? Congratulations you just rationalized infidelity. If the Toyota didn't have feelings everything would be fine. I don't think anything you're doing is unhealthy. I just know that everyone (everyone who isn't a jaded, cynical mutherfucker like myself) in a new relationship is afloat on all the delerious possibilities, not looking for shoals to crash into. Mine has been a life of shoals... followed by a normal, boring and cloyingly happy 20-year relationship.
I've found it's one of the most intoxicating feelings, being in a new relationship. It used to run the risk of tainting everything that followed in that relationship, because things inevitably calm down and become stable/boring/predictable. But before then? That emotional spice of discovering a new person? Hooo boy. However, holy shit I enjoy stable/boring/predictable now. My partner asked me once "Do you think we're boring?" and I said "No. I think we do what we want, when we want." And she hummed over this so I expanded by asking "What do you want to do this evening?" And she said "Stay home, eat chocolate and work on my cross-stitch." And I said "Fuck yeah." so we did that. We have a little signal at gatherings, one quick eyebrow raise is code for "I'm running out of social battery, can we escape soon?" two quick eyebrow raises is code for "I'm running out of social battery, can we escape soon and also I want to fuck?". There's likely a lot of eye smouldering going on in tandem with the double raise, but I like to think we've transcended the need for that. I've never felt so damn comfortable.I just know that everyone (everyone who isn't a jaded, cynical mutherfucker like myself) in a new relationship is afloat on all the delerious possibilities, not looking for shoals to crash into.
We watch a lot of HBO - she does charts, I window-shop watches and cars I will never buy (I have an obscene obsession with the poorest-executed kit cars I can find). And boy howdy will HBO give you a heapin' helpin' of extremely complicated, extremely fractious, extremely exhausting relationships. It's only boring if it bores you. I used to start dating a girl and making a mental note of how many weeks or months it was likely to last. I dated two (simultaneously) where I knew it would either flame out in weeks or go on forever in an exhaustively combustible fashion. When I started dating my wife I couldn't see what would end the relationship. So far, nothing has.
Wow I love everything about that. The stable/boring/predictable aspect of a relationship, and probably every aspect of life, is something I really struggle with. I was messaging a friend earlier today about this whole situation, and I quote "I think that this beginning of whatever this is, is super interesting space to be in right now, but also I think it's provoking some of the slightly more manic aspects of my personality". lol.However, holy shit I enjoy stable/boring/predictable now. My partner asked me once "Do you think we're boring?" and I said "No. I think we do what we want, when we want." And she hummed over this so I expanded by asking "What do you want to do this evening?" And she said "Stay home, eat chocolate and work on my cross-stitch." And I said "Fuck yeah." so we did that. We have a little signal at gatherings, one quick eyebrow raise is code for "I'm running out of social battery, can we escape soon?" two quick eyebrow raises is code for "I'm running out of social battery, can we escape soon and also I want to fuck?". There's likely a lot of eye smouldering going on in tandem with the double raise, but I like to think we've transcended the need for that.
How you're feeling does resonate with me. Not too long ago, in my 20s, I struggled with the idea of anything feeling 'static'. I wanted new things, to constantly be moving and discovering. Because it felt awesome. It was like tucking into a new book, but I was in the book experiencing things. While I don't begrudge how I felt before, the person I am now is noticeably different and I put a lot of that down to just having my partner and everything we've built/begun to build. There's so many things that I know about her, and I only know them after being with her the past 5 (going on 6) years. It's not long compared to some; but similar to your current situation, it began and continued very organically. We met on Tinder, talked for months (truly, months!) before actually meeting up. Since that first night at a dingy little bar that sold our favourite drinks and had killer live music, we've been together. Officially, months down the track, but uhh.. Emotionally? Yeah that night, onwards. She has a little tic when she talks and gets passionate about a topic - her right eye winks a little. It's adorable, and I'm never going to point it out because she'll get self-conscious. She absolutely loves any jewellery that's just fuckin' weird and will collect shiny things on a whim. She's a goddamn magpie. We found one of those old letter-press, printing tray things and it's mounted in the spare bedroom where she can display an ever increasing and ever-eclectic collection. I'll nab a photo at some point, it's really quite impressive. Her mother, one of the most kind and warm people I've ever met, described her as 'a tyrant' when she was a toddler. If she didn't get her way she'd go rigid with rage and if that didn't work, she'd remove all of her clothing in protest. I've held her hair back when she was sick, helped her through panic attacks, and taught her how to write a CV (she always had jobs through word of mouth until we had met). She's practically carried my emotional state on her back in 2017, and spearheaded the purchase of our first house. I was too nervous to try, she was determined to have a slice of land to call ours and have a chicken coop, garden, deck, and nobody to tell her off when she hung her assortment of shinies. There's something so undeniably attractive about someone determined and passionate. All of this to say, that discovery period, that super interesting space, is so great. I loved it. But I also really love the times after that initial phase, where you get to apply everything you've learned about this person and as an unstoppable unit, help each other grow. I hope whatever the outcome, it works out for you in the end. I'm really pleased you've found someone you click with, but I do also agree with kb and Lil's musings on the matter - they're far more articulate than I so I won't repeat anything. As you say, advocate for yourself first! But I hope it works out. It all sounds so promising.
This whole passage makes me so happy. My only observation is you're referring to "the initial discovery period" as "the discovery period" as if there's only one, when everything about what you write indicates that you know you're discovering more and more about each other every day. Which, as two people who do not lead static lives, is exactly the way it's supposed to work.
The idea of mutual 'control' and general question of the 'rationality' of expecting monogamy are concepts with which I've still yet to come to terms. It's not an insecurity borne of any past or present situation, but rather just the hypothetical of a partner proposing non-monogamy and whether I could (or perhaps more importantly, need to) rationalize a rejection that's not reliant on mitigable concerns (e.g. using protection). Setting aside the empirical arguments, I don't know how to examine the emotional need for a partner to reciprocate monogamy and whether that's rooted in something outside of possessiveness.I also think that relationships, at a basic level, ARE a mutual pact of control.
Late to the discussion. But I just want to say that this line from kleinbl00 is spot on: And she won't respect you.
-some will say otherwise, but they’re wrong. His advice about letting her go until she’s ready to come back makes a lot of sense too. Wishing you the best here, BFE. You deserve it!