a thoughtful web.
Share good ideas and conversation.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by mk
mk  ·  60 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Wait, are we doing it wrong? [Potential major Hubski experiment]

This is all true.

However, applying following to comments would have an impact. It might be for the worse, but it would be noticeable.

    nothing needs to change about hubski if the current track is the way you want things to be

It isn't.





Quatrarius  ·  60 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

then i think your first priority should be to attract people to the site and not fiddle around with the deck chairs on the titanic so to speak

sometimes i question why I'm here now that pabs is gone and galen never posts anymore, spoons is gone, SBG is mostly gone - my cohort on the site is gone and when i come on here there are fewer and fewer people i feel like i can relate to

i think the problem of muting and moderation has sucked up too much oxygen on here when both can be solved with a larger userbase and the current system of filtering/mutes

like.little hubble bubbles on the spokes of the hubwheel fibonacci hootenanny, small communities lead to segregation and less friction

i don't know, i just know that the community is why I'm here and not the features of the site and i don't feel like i fit in with the users here

and maybe that's just on me

kantos  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    then i think your first priority should be to attract people to the site and not fiddle around with the deck chairs on the titanic so to speak

Didn't notice many new user migrations from Reddit before the spam-gate occurred, but growth was all the more stunted without allowing new users to post. Barrier to entry isn't welcoming, and even making a new account can be disheartening.

(Captcha bugged)

Hubski needs new blood more than anything.

mk  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think we can remove the promote thing with this experiment. I'm not very fond of it.

Google captcha doesn't work at all. Our date thing works but the sync isn't good. I'll introduce a different one. Spam bots are the worst.

steve  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    pabs is gone

    spoons is gone

you just freaked me out. I had to go check... though they may not have posted in a while, nowaypablo and coffeesp00ns are still here.

coffeesp00ns  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Idunno what happened to make me stop coming around. I think it was just a very stressful time to be a trans person online. I use social media a lot differently than I used to now - I spend more time on things like discord and twitter, and less time on places like reddit.

Since this is the second time I've been brought up her in the past few months, I figure I'll give the ol' gal another try, and see what's up on hubski these days.

kleinbl00  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I for one consider your perspective to be incredibly valuable.

steve  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I miss your voice. Sorry for your stressful time. I think we’ve all been there and can commiserate. If you can make time for Hubski - awesome. If not - I totally get it.

I’ve waxed and waned a lot in the last three years.

lil  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I’m having a stressful time right now and will post soon about it.

steve  ·  57 days ago  ·  link  ·  

So many hugs lil

Quatrarius  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

i know it's the nature of the site to pop in and out but when "popping in and out" means posting once in the last 3 years like spoons or even just looong gaps between spurts of activity like pabs i don't think it's helpful to call people still here

i haven't talked to either of them in a very long time

thenewgreen  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

100%. It’s magical thinking to be coding up massive changes to a site that isn’t actively attracting new users. I’d much rather see time and energy go towards recruiting awesome people to the site. I used to check Hubski every single day at least a dozen times. Now I check once Every other day. Because I know I’m not missing anything. That’s fine. But I don’t think the site is suffering from functionality but rather a lack of people.

Also, fwiw. I too miss ‘spoons and pabs. I still occasionally post to #songsforpabs in the hopes that I am sharing music with my old pal.

nowaypablo  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Too often I take those posts to #songsforpabs for granted tng. So... Thank you.

kleinbl00  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think you're a hell of a sport for assuming the mantle of musical neophyte for people to throw suggestions at.

nowaypablo  ·  57 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I resent your sarcasm for I benefit wonderfully from this mantle.

kleinbl00  ·  57 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Absolutely zero sarcasm. My point was "hey guise here's a song I think you would like" is done under the aegis of "hey dude who asked about music in 2012 we're still using you as our exemplar."

nowaypablo  ·  57 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Hahaha gotcha, I'm always here for it.

thenewgreen  ·  56 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Speak for yourself, I’m literally thinking “nowaypablo,” might specifically dig this. But point taken.

kleinbl00  ·  56 days ago  ·  link  ·  

To be clear: I think it's hilarious. There's a certain element of "hey olds" that then becomes culture.

thenewgreen  ·  56 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh, it was definitely started in the spirit of, “I’m gonna show this cool, much younger person, some music they’ve likely never heard.”

thenewgreen  ·  56 days ago  ·  link  ·  

kleinbl00, I remember when I originally posted with it cgod pointed out that it read, “songs for punk ass bitches.” This adds to the lore.

nowaypablo  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Hey friendos, I’m here (thanks steve!) in my own capacity. I actually check hubski instinctively on a daily basis, like I would reddit or facebook. I haven’t heard from galen in a moment though, but I know he’s kicking ass in school abroad last I heard, and I’m rooting for him.

I check Hubski like I’d pop into a room to check on a group of people:

“Hey, yall doing alright? you need anything? Cool, have fun.”

Im active in spurts because its only every once in a while that I have to bring someone a glass of water, so to speak. Or, I’m having the kind of day where I need to take a knee and see what’s going on outside of my head; I pop over to a room where I can rely on many users doing their best to be their version of a good person.

There was a time when I was posting, sharing and commenting all day long (sometimes on alias accounts) and was always given a healthy combo-dose of guidance and encouragement. I just don’t have the luxury to commit to that right now, but I highly doubt the site is at any a loss if some of the hubsquids in my “peer group” dont saturate the feed.

edit: since I’m already in this thread and have yet to be muted by our benevolent developer megamind, I think no magnitude of algorithmic glory and website-design strategy will accomplish the key task of growth in numbers, or depth of field (both vertically in value of content/users and horizontally in range of content/users). Good marketing and good luck will do that as you likely just have to knock enough heads against the site to stick ones that are tensile enough to hold on. All your vision for a philosophically and mechanically perfect site does accomplish has already long been achieved on Hubski... a kick-ass site full of meaningful content that people love. If you’re feeling doldrums, slap a decent throwback-to-quality-content mechanism on this site and indulge in the insane amount of valuable thought people put on this platform.

galen  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Hello! I am still alive! Gonna post in Pubski in a bit, come say hi! Missed y'all too.

steve  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

tis true... tis true...

mk  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think mute is a shitty feature. I don’t do it and I don’t like it. It makes for bad feelings. However, default comments means you have to either do it for people, or let them do it.

Quatrarius  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

having a community based around discussion means you need to be able to take a break from certain discussions - there are people here where i know what their responses will be to my posts and i'm not interested in hearing them, or people i think are disruptive and unhelpful

the fact that you're still focused on muting is really bad

mk  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Muting would be gone. I don’t mute people, but people here do, and get angry at each other about it.

I have the sense that people aren’t fully understanding how this will all work. You will be able to take a break from talking with users, it won’t be by blocking their replies, however.

kleinbl00  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Let's be clear, then: what you're trying to do is prevent people from getting mad at each other.

During a pandemic.

Under the most controversial president we've ever had.

While there's a recession on.

And 58 million people are unemployed.

I know you hate muting but look: you can't have a conversation on the Internet without some sort of moderation. Heavy, light, top-down, bottom-up, whatever: this functionality is required even on the chans.

And I know you think what you're doing isn't muting, but it's worse: it's giving everyone earplugs and requiring them to opt into hearing literally everyone.

You can't attempt to "solve" muting if it's not even a feature you use. The fact that you can ban spammers and the rest of us can't means that your experience does not match that of any other user.

CrazyEyeJoe  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Personally, I really hate the mute feature, for one reason; some years ago kleinbloo muted me because I disagreed with him about something. He posts 90% of the things that interest me here, and because of that I'm unable to comment on 90% of the stuff that interests me.

Is that really necessary? Why can't I just be muted for him, why do I have to be banned from every post he ever makes? Honestly, it's a wonder I'm still hanging out here, it's such a toxic feature.

kleinbl00  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Ever try apologizing? I love unmuting people.

I'm going to assume that you thought about it, but never figured out how.

CrazyEyeJoe  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Look, this happened 5 years ago, and you probably don't even remember it. I, however, have been reminded of it every time I couldn't comment on one of your posts. I didn't think it was fair when you muted me, so honestly I'm still a little bit salty about it.

I think you post a lot of good content, and I'm interested in what you have to say. That doesn't mean I agree with everything, and the fact that I disagree is not meant as some personal attack towards you, and it doesn't mean that I don't have any respect for you. It's just that I have a different point of view, sometimes very much so.

I don't want to re-open some five year old argument, so let's please just move past this. Next time I start a debate I'll try to be less aggressive, and conversely I hope you can bear in mind that I'm actually not an idiot, so please try to read me charitably.

kleinbl00  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I don't want to re-open some five year old argument, so let's please just move past this.

It's important to examine the dynamic here because I think you'll find it illuminating. I think others will, too.

I absolutely remember our last interaction. You picked a fight with me, I told you to back off, and then you opted to gripe to someone else about what an asshat I was. You went from zero to ad hominem in three posts, and decided to bring others into the dispute.

Meanwhile, you assume I don't remember it, while also arguing that it's fresh in your memory. In other words, the interaction was de facto more important to you than to me, despite the fact that I was the one who took action over it.

Moving on, I point out that what's really needed is an apology, an argument I have made at length. You claim to like my content, you claim to like my insights, yet the idea that I might want to not suffer ad hominem attacks for making them does not strike you as relevant enough to do what I'm asking point blank. And when I point out that you were insulting, you argue that you have a different view, not that my "hey dude try not to be such a dick" was actually an entreaty to not be such a dick. That is something you haven't considered: if we're conversing somewhere neither of us have any power, the only thing each of us can do is walk away. But if we're conversing somewhere I've staked a claim to? You have to converse on my terms.

FUNDAMENTALLY - I choose what I post and I choose what I say and I have the ability to choose how much I am attacked for doing so. You crossed a line, I told you that you had crossed a line, and you doubled down so I chose to force you to do that elsewhere. This is my choice, and frankly, the only reason I post at all: I'm not interested in engaging in gladiatorial combat every time I opt to share something, been there, done that, got nominated for commenter of the year three years in a row (turned it down each time because really, it was people who loved the beatdowns).

SO LOOK: I can avoid people who refuse to stop being dicks two ways. I can not post or comment at all or I can own my posts. Owning my posts means people interact with them on my terms. It's no more or less than what I'd get with a blog or a byline. And I'm here literally asking do you think you could say you're sorry? and you're literally here saying no.

So I'll try again: apologize. That's the way you get me to extend you goodwill. You had plenty, you burned through it, I'm telling you how to get it back and refusing to do so isn't going to change my mind because right now? Right now what I'm taking note of is that you still refuse to apologize five years later.

mk - this is the problem muting solves, and just because you don't have it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. On Reddit, content is owned by the moderators. On Hubski, content is owned by the poster. That is a good thing, not a bad thing, and ownership is meaningless without the ability to assert property rights.

CrazyEyeJoe  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I didn't think anything I said in that thread was unreasonable, so I didn't think I had anything to apologise for. Even looking at it now, I don't think I said anything unreasonable.

I tried to move past it, but you clearly have much higher standards for how others should behave than yourself. I expected you to not be graceful, but honestly I didn't expect this much vitriol over this.

You win, I'll find another community to join.

kleinbl00  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Let's not lose sight of the fact that you griped about being muted but didn't apologize, I unmuted you and talked at length about the need to apologize, we're still here conversing about the purpose of apologizing, and your move is to

- accuse me of hypocrisy

- denigrate my ability to converse

- remark about how "much vitriol" I've injected into a comment thread you started by accusing me of toxic tyranny.

I'm just pointing that out. I think we can both agree that I'm not reacting to it.

I'd like to highlight something else: you argue that this has been an ongoing problem for five years due to something "I probably don't even remember" but when I answer that I do remember, and that I will happily extend an olive branch on exactly one condition, you say I "win" by you leaving.

I think you're reacting to a power dynamic. "I didn't think anything I said in that thread was unreasonable, so I didn't think I had anything to apologise for" means that you think we're on equal footing. we're not. The adjudicator of our dispute is me if it's on my posts and you if it's on your posts. wasoxygen has chosen to prevent me from commenting on his posts, which is entirely within his rights - he often posts Libertarian screeds that get under my skin like no other and preventing me from opining certainly keeps his comment threads more cordial. I could certainly reach out to him to ask for permission to comment again - he and I have largely civil discussions outside the realm of economics. But I doubt it would end well.

If "it" is a dispute between you and me, and that dispute takes place on content I control, "to move past it" you have to meet my terms. I've explained what those terms are calmly and I've explained the thinking behind them. Simply put, you hurt my feelings cannot be answered with I don't think so.

I win if you can understand that. So do you.

CrazyEyeJoe  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I thought you wouldn't remember because, unlike me, you don't constantly see "you're muted here".

Look man, you've been incredibly condescending towards me, you were back then as well. Demanding an apology from me as if I'm some child you're scolding is just more of the same.

I didn't complain that you muted me; I complained that the feature works in a way that I personally find to be a bit much. Why isn't it enough that you don't see my posts?

But honestly, I just can't take this toxicity. I've never understood what was so deeply offensive about what I wrote, and I don't understand why, after all this time, you're still that angry about it. You've been really mean to me, and you act as if I'm the asshole.

I'm sorry to be leaving Hubski because I've found a lot of interesting content here, but I don't feel welcome, and hopefully there are some decent alternatives out there. Must be.

kleinbl00  ·  58 days ago  ·  link  ·  

This is so much simpler than you're making it out to be. If you'd like to interact with me and my content, I'd like you to be civil. My calls for you to be civil have caused to you become accusatory and petulant. Have I been really mean to you today? Or have I been open, candid and forgiving in order to meet you more than halfway?

I'm legitimately trying to have an honest and fruitful discussion here and you're taking every opportunity to be confrontational, even when talking about the harmful effects of confrontation. Especially when you seem to believe in your unalienable right to be confrontational on anything I care to post.

Put yourself in my shoes. What do I get out of unmuting you? What did I get out of unmuting you last night? What am I getting out of this conversation? What do I get out of allowing you to comment on anything else I share? What, ultimately, is my reward for interacting with you? If we can both get along, that reward is conversation. If we can't, that reward is actually a punishment.

My perspective is that I'm not asking for a lot. Your perspective appears to be that I'm asking entirely too much. Let's try this: why don't you tell me why an apology is too big an ask? Because clearly, you hold this belief deeply and just as clearly, you haven't been able to explain it to me.

CrazyEyeJoe  ·  57 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Alright, I'll play along.

    Have I been really mean to you today?

Well... yeah. I was complaining about the mute feature, and when you unexpectedly showed up (I didn't even know you could see my posts), I tried to just move past what I perceived to be an unfair appraisal of what I wrote several years ago, and just let it go. You then proceed to act all aggressive, call me a dick, and demand that I submit to you and apologise for some supposed insult.

Then you claim that you've been really open and extending an olive branch, but I felt attacked throughout this whole so called peace offering.

    why don't you tell me why an apology is too big an ask?

Muting someone means something like "Your input is so worthless I'd rather never have to consciously ignore one of your posts again." So it's safe to say I felt pretty hurt by that, and I've honestly felt pretty insulted by how you're talking to me in this thread. You accuse me of ad hominems, being a dick, petulant, burning through goodwill, basically being an all round awful poster, when honestly I try to be interesting when I post, and I only post when I think I have something worth saying.

You claim that you extended me a lot of goodwill, and I burned through it all. We had ONE SINGLE ARGUMENT before you muted me. I don't post a lot, so I can pretty quickly go through my whole history. We never had an argument before that one time, and I barely even interacted with you before that. Where was all this goodwill you speak of?

I felt it was unnecessarily harsh to mute me after a single disagreement. I also feel it's pretty harsh to demand an apology when I probably felt just as insulted as you did, seemingly without having any inkling that perhaps you haven't been that nice to me either.

Like I said, I never understood what was so bad about what I wrote. You've made a lot of hyperbolic claims about what I've been saying, but you never quoted anything to make me understand where I offended you. I thought I was making a reasonable point, maybe a little bit aggressive in tone? But you're constantly aggressive, so why is it so awful if I write something pointed?

kleinbl00  ·  57 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I was complaining about the mute feature, and when you unexpectedly showed up (I didn't even know you could see my posts), I tried to just move past what I perceived to be an unfair appraisal of what I wrote several years ago, and just let it go. You then proceed to act all aggressive, call me a dick, and demand that I submit to you and apologise for some supposed insult.

I said you were blocked for being a dick years ago as part of an attempt to bridge the gap and promote some healing. I'm sorry if that makes you feel attacked (see how easy that was?). It was not my intention. My goal here is to right what you perceive as a wrong - on the basis that if we can both come out of this conversation with an understanding of the other I won't have to wrong that right again.

The problem is, you're apparently having a hard time understanding that your perception of your wrongdoing isn't important here, mine is, since it's my content you wish to interact with.

We're at an impasse - I'm saying "you were obnoxious, apologize" and you're saying "I wasn't obnoxious, I won't" which means I'm going to have as little luck getting you to be more considerate in the future as I have in the past. Do you see the problem here?

You say you're trying to move past this. I'm giving you a roadmap. You do more than perceive this as hostile, you declare it to be antagonistic and rude over and over again. If this is the way my interactions with you are going to go, why would I want them?

Do you see the problem?

CrazyEyeJoe  ·  57 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  

Alright, fair enough. If I hurt your feelings back then, I'm sorry that I did, and I certainly didn't intend to.

I'll try to avoid it in the future as well, and hopefully we can have some more productive exchanges.

Cumol  ·  56 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Phew, "Haare gut, alles gut!"

mk  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It’s a terrible feature that I am determined to get rid of.

Quatrarius  ·  60 days ago  ·  link  ·  

i guess if I'm not part of the secret club then I'll make my own club

mk  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

DM me your telegram or text and I’ll bug you from time to time. Not a planned body.

ooli  ·  59 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Is there any way to test what the end result should be with more posts?

Should I build a bot to repost the front page of reddit/hacker here, so we have way more contents?

Because waiting for more people to come, will never work.. even if imho having more user should be the end goal

ButterflyEffect  ·  60 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Alrighty hi friends.

mk what's unclear to me is - what problem are you trying to solve? what do you want Hubski to be? yes this one has been discussed over and over but what about today? If you logged on to Hubski for the first time today and were a new user, what would you like your experience to be and what would you like the community to look like?

mk  ·  60 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks.

I would want to see interesting posts (not just news), and most importantly, comments on those posts that add to their value. I'd like to see people disagree with each other, but be cool about it.

I would not want too see lots of arguments where emotions were running high.